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BobB16 (Hawaii)
Posts: 4
Posted:
I am a board member, and am curious as to the limits (if any) that the BOD may have in regard to mandating that certain repairs be done in the name of safety. In the past we have mandated that all owners replace all electrical outlets, all water lines to refrigerators, dishwashers, and laundry area, replace all water shut off valves, and were even going to mandate the removal of all garbage disposals to lessen stress on the sewer lines. All of these, except the disposal idea, had rational roots in safety & prevention of larger problems. Now we are about to have a discussion of mandating that all owners have a working fire extinguisher in their condos. Can a BOD mandate that owners purchase, or repair something that is not actually attached to the unit?
JeffR7 (California)
Posts: 251
Posted:
Unless your governing allows for that you have no authority to mandate anything that is not considered a common area. I am surprised owners have agreed to obey by your requirements thus far. Whatever is inside a unit is personal property.

You can implement rules that affect how the property is operated. For example you may require that owners paint their homes on outside every so many years, but you can't require them to do it on the inside.
PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Bob,

I think it is a good idea for every owner to have a portable fire extinguisher and smoke detectors. To enforce it, may have to amend your documents however. I think amending the rules under 'safety' would do. In fact, this policy could also reduce your fire insurance policy.
PS: Am sure your condo has smoke detectors and fire extinguishers in the common areas.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Bob - how old are your units.

The electrical issues could be a real safety concern.

Perhaps a group rate for re-wiring could be negotiated.

The updates may have been ordered (mandated) by inspectors, too.(fire or code)

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I would say your safety recommendations fall under "Suggestions" than a mandate. It should be up to the individual owner's to do the safety suggestions recommended. However, if the HOA wants to truly mandate these rules, then be prepared to pay for them. Take a vote, make a special assessment, and order the work to be done. Otherwise, it's just sound good safety advice. Plus, most of this falls under the individual's insurance policies and not the condo's.

Former HOA President
PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Plus, most of this falls under the individual's insurance policies and not the condo's. (Melissa)

I argue that is not always the case. If one owner installs hurricane , yes his insurance can go down. But if every owner in the complex installs hurricane shutters, the wind insurance policy for the association will be decreased. This is also why some condominiums make hurricane shutters a mandatory requirement.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
If your documents don't give you the authority and the condo meets code you can't force anything. Your lucky you have gotten the response so far to your requests.

Options are either to change your documents or to send a letter advising them of the concern and asking them to comply. Some insurance companies give discounts for fire extinguishers anyway....
BobB16 (Hawaii)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Hello Jeff,
Thanks for you reply. If the board can't mandate anything that isn't common area, then how, in years past, have they directed what color blinds/drapes are visible, or that upper units are not allowed to have any flooring other than carpet for sound reasons?
Bob
BobB16 (Hawaii)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Hello PetunkaM,
I believe that fire extinguishers are a good idea also, however the issue is whether it can be mandated by the board. When you say "amend your documents" what do you mean? Are you speaking of the CC&R's? The various boards over the years have made board decisions saying that anything to do with safety can be mandated. I'm just wondering if these things must necessitate a change/addition to the CC&R's or is this sufficient?
Bob
BobB16 (Hawaii)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Hello Melissa,
The point is that the board has taken these suggestions and mandated that if owners do not do them, the board will have it done and charge the owners. There is no question whether most of these things are good advice, I'm just trying to pin down what is the limit of a BOD's powers.
Bob
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BobB16 on 10/20/2011 1:51 PM
Hello Melissa,
The point is that the board has taken these suggestions and mandated that if owners do not do them, the board will have it done and charge the owners. There is no question whether most of these things are good advice, I'm just trying to pin down what is the limit of a BOD's powers.
Bob

bob:

The limit of your BOD's powers are contained within your documents, read them, study them and know them well. Some documents alway the BOD to dictate flooring types if there are common walls for noise purposes. Also, the aesthetics of any blinds, etc, that can be seen in public area are often a concern of many BOD and the covenants give them the power to dictate it.

I don't argue with what you are saying, I agree 100% as to the safety aspect, but if the documents do not give the BOD the power, they just can't make it up.
JeffR7 (California)
Posts: 251
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BobB16 on 10/20/2011 1:49 PM
Hello PetunkaM,
I believe that fire extinguishers are a good idea also, however the issue is whether it can be mandated by the board. When you say "amend your documents" what do you mean? Are you speaking of the CC&R's? The various boards over the years have made board decisions saying that anything to do with safety can be mandated. I'm just wondering if these things must necessitate a change/addition to the CC&R's or is this sufficient?
Bob

Bob, it can be argued that color of the drapes affect how the the building looks and if you are trying to keep a uniform look it goes. Personally I don't agree with that and wouldn't ever go for it, but it might work for some. What's next you'll mandate how bright of a light bulb one can install? After all at night different light builds will give a building a not uniform look.

Floors is a completely different discussion which was covered here numerous times. Also if you notice most CC&Rs don't mandate what carpet needs to be installed, but rather say that hard surface flooring is not allowed. This is because most board members don't bother to educate themselves on current sound insulation techniques for hard surface flooring. But again, this is a complete different discussion.

Some board go too far in trying to control their associations. Probably the intent is good, the implementation mostly sucks. Where do you stop with your rules? Schedule on when people take a shower, after all increased water flow at one time will damage pipes. Schedule on when using a restroom? All owners flushing at the same time will affect a sewer line. Schedule on when residents may drive their cars? All cars at once will sure pollute air and damage the road. Do you see where I am going? There has got to be common sense. If you are worried that your electrical wiring is old you should hire a contractor and address it as a community. If you think you need fire extinguishers why not purchase them in bulk and place them in a common area near doors. If your plumbing is affected by garbage disposals you need to fix your pluming not control my life on what I can or can't do in MY kitchen.
PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:

I believe that fire extinguishers are a good idea also, however the issue is whether it can be mandated by the board. When you say "amend your documents" what do you mean? Are you speaking of the CC&R's? The various boards over the years have made board decisions saying that anything to do with safety can be mandated. I'm just wondering if these things must necessitate a change/addition to the CC&R's or is this sufficient? (BOB)

Bob,
I do not think you need to amend the CR&Rs (other opinions may differ). I think you only to need to amend the Rules and Regulations – if you have any- which are just a subset of CR&Rs. Rules & Regulations, usually require the BOD approval only. I also do not believe that most people would argue a mandatory fire extinguisher is an unreasonable rule if you are talking only about the kitchen models which are truly quite inexpensive ($20-$50).

Nevertheless, if you are concerned this Rule may not be reasonable you will have to ask the membership to vote on it and amend the CC&Rs. There are just too many fires in the condo/apartment buildings and only you know how your building is constructed and what the potential risks are.
As, I said earlier, I am sure your condo has smoke detectors and fire extinguishers in the common areas, right? This may be actually required by some state laws for apartment and condo buildings or by your insurance company.

Jeff said, β€˜Some board go too far in trying to control their associations.’ I do not think this is one of those instances but that is my opinion.
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Are we dealing with attached units here?

If there are attached units, I would expect that the CCRs gives the association the right to regulate safety to protect not only common elements, but also to regulate safety in instances when a hazard is one unit can affect the safety of other units. Keep in mind also that regulating safety in individual units can have an effect on the insurance premiums for the common elements, which in turn affects everyone's dues.

Fire extinguishers are a good example. Insurance companies typically offer reduced premiums for owners who have fire extinguishers (usually in the kitchen and/or garage).

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