Unofficial HOA Websites

Started by FoxG • 23 replies • 2678 views

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FoxG (Florida)
Posts: 17

Posted:

Hi Folks,
I just joined this forum after noticing a post by PetunkaM on the community websites string, which referenced my unofficial weblog located at http://foxwoodglenhoa.blogspot.com/ . Creating a page like this is free, and easy. Once it’s set up, it requires little effort to maintain.

I started this blog because our board essentially operates in secret and is not providing any information to our members…Our property manager even refused to reveal the identities of the current board members! A few years ago, our board became frustrated with the slightest dissent from homeowners regarding any issue during board meetings. Their response was to stop having open meetings and to instruct their property manager to withhold information from the homeowners. The manager eventually relented when one homeowner registered a complaint against her at Florida DBPR for refusing to provide him access to the financial records. Once revealed, these records showed that the board has failed to collect annual dues from over 1/3 of the homeowners for up to three years.

Using a weblog for this purpose certainly involves some risk of legal action. Our board and their property manager have made such threats. Hopefully maintaining anonymity and presenting only factual information will reduce this risk.

I hope that revealing this information to our homeowners through this weblog and mailing fliers will motivate more HOA members to work toward re-establishing communication with our board members. It would be nice to start using the weblog as a source of positive information and/or as forum for positive communication between our HOA members.

I hope I’m breaking your rules by commenting here...I’m not on the BOD or a HOA professional, but I suppose you could consider me an association volunteer, since I’m donating my time and effort to try to get our misguided BOD back on track.

I’m open to any other suggestions regarding how to compel our board and our PM to follow our By-Laws.
Fox

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

attorney

court of law

secretary of state (corporation registrations)

petition for receivership

'pick up and move on down the road'

FoxG (Florida)
Posts: 17

Posted:

1. no individal homeowner here will want to risk their personal treasure taking this to court.
2. these types of issues are on the "bottom of the stack" for the state
3. How can someone other than a HOA officer petition for receivership on behalf of the HOA?
4. I like it here otherwise...no plans to move.

PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

'Our property manager even refused to reveal the identities of the current board members!'

Fox,

This is almost funny. Do members read it? Why you do not get any reaction and/or comments ?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061

Posted:

Hi Fox,

I haven't really looked at your site other then a quick glace to see what it was.

I had previously done a educate the membership campaign but did it by printed newsletters vs. a website. I chose the newsletter approach because I felt it was important that the word got out to the members but the whole world didn't need to know about our issues. I believed that if the world knew about them, it could hurt potential sales which would then hurt everyone.

The only issue anyone who decides to do something like this (be it web or paper based) needs to be aware of, is knowing that they are responsible for what is posted by them. This could open up potential legal action. Therefore, it's usually best to just report the facts without embellishment and, as hard as it might be, to keep personal emotions out of any writings.

Individuals doing these campaigns also need to have clear goals in mind and should probably have a time frame set to achieve those goals. As you posted, it doesn't take much effort but it does take some effort, time and money to do these type of campaigns. At some point the individual needs to ask themselves if the time, energy and money is worth it. To answer that question, they need to have set the goals and see if they are being accomplished.

Tim

PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

haven't really looked at your site other then a quick glace to see what it was. (Tim)

Tim,

This kind of disqualifies the rest of your message. America is a free county. Plus, no lecturing needed, we are all adults. I truly honestly disagree with your vies here.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061

Posted:

Petunka,

I do believe that it's prudent to point out issues associated publishing a newsletter or website that might be considered to be against the Association. As I posted, I didn't really read that specific site. However, the thread was about "unofficial web sites". Therefore, I believe that my opinion was relevant to the discussion. After all, no matter who gives the advice, if an individual acts upon that advice, they will be the ones to reap the rewards or suffer any consequences. Not the person offering the advice.

I wasn't trying to lecture, I was attempting to point out potential issues so anyone (not just the one's posting) would be aware of possible consequences (both expected or unexpected).

I'm certainly not vying for anything on this forum. People certainly are free to disagree with my advice and I with theirs. If anyone wants to discuss the merits of the advice I offer, great! Perhaps I missed something, misread the posting or was simply unaware and/or lacked the knowledge. I'm willing to admit mistakes and (hopefully) learn from them.

FoxG (Florida)
Posts: 17

Posted:

I’m thrilled with the responses so far…I’m open to consider any fresh perspective on this.

Tim makes a reasonable point that it is important to maintain perspective and set goals. I would like to see positive change here, but not at any cost...either to my wallet or my sanity. With that said, this endeavor is partly recreational on my part…I gave up on conventional attempts at reaching these folks about a year ago.

Petunka’s comment about this being “almost funny” is spot on…My intent was to be satirical and sarcastic while pointing out several serious issues. I figured that since face to face communication was not working, I would just try shaking the hornets nest. As for reaction…the PM initially had a cow over it, fearing that it would affect her business. She convinced the board to use HOA funds to send C&D letters to several suspected homeowners. What’s really funny is that I was not a recipient of one of those C&D letters. I can see from the analytics that several homeowners regularly visit the site. But in the year that it has been up, the board has withdrawn even further and no other homeowners appear to be interested in changing anything. Out of our 44 homeowners, there are only about 7 people that care anything about the operational aspects of the HOA….and 5 of them are the current board members.

Fox

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061

Posted:

Fox,

When I was doing my campaign, I also felt that many members just didn't care. Then a major issue came up over raising assessments which I took a position against. In my newsletter, I listed the reasons and specified where people could verify my justification for the reasons (meeting minutes, web sites, etc.).

I heard nothing from the membership. I told my wife if this measure passes, I will be of the expectation that no-one cares enough about the issue to continue my effort. At the meeting, I was blown away with the support. Many, many members stood up with copies of my newsletter in hand and asked the same questions of the board I had wanted answered. When the Board provided a general response, other members would paraphrase what I had written and demand specifics. As a result of that meeting, the board had to go back and figure out how to cut expenses to make the budget work (which they did) vs. asking for an increase.

What I'm trying to demonstrate is that you may be reaching more people then you think you are. They just might not be willing to show it until an issue reaches into their wallet.

Keep up the good work.

Tim

PamelaB2 (Missouri)
Posts: 16

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 10/06/2011 7:31 PM
Fox,

... listed the reasons and specified where people could verify my justification for the reasons (meeting minutes, web sites, etc.).

..... I was blown away with the support. ..... members would paraphrase what I had written and demand specifics. As a result of that meeting, the board had to go back and figure out how to cut expenses..... you may be reaching more people then you think you are. They just might not be willing to show it until an issue reaches into their wallet.

I agree totally, Tim. We do ours via blogs. Cheap and quick. Amazing what you can do when you find a way to educate them.

PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

'My intent was to be satirical and sarcastic while pointing out several serious issues. I figured that since face to face communication was not working, I would just try shaking the hornets nest. Fox'

Fox,
Yes, that is clear. But I would worry about naming delinquent owners for the whole world to see. That, I find to be a negative. Unfortunately, your community is quite small and perhaps not too many people want to get involved or acknowledge the problem which, again, is not untypical. I would also try a one page flyer to see if that will stir up some action.

CharlesB17
Posts: 112

Posted:

I for one, do believe that educated owners are empowered owners. However, You could give a person or a group of people the power to change the world, and they would not do it unless they were motivated. And there in lies the problem in most associations. What motivates people to make changes? One possible option is money.
Our attorney had advised us against publishing a "Dead Beat" list. No one wins in a legal battle, except the attorneys. Regardless who wins the case. As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
IMHO, I am in agreement with TIM on this. I think publically airing the associations "Dirty Laundry" could potentially discourage sales in your neighborhood. And that alone, could be the beginning of your demise. With out new and fresh thinkers and workers coming in, that would want change and are not tired of the battle, then the status may most possibly remain the same.
I think Tim's method holds merit. As we have a website and members must log in, as the site is secure, to view any "Dirty Laundry" that is aired. This keeps it in the community and not in the public eye.

Motivation with education would revolutionize the world!

FoxG (Florida)
Posts: 17

Posted:

Petunka,
I sent out a one page flier that was similar to the web post. It showed the delinquent list and called for homeowners to contact the board and PM to demand that they collect the past dues. Other past fliers pointed out several of the BODs failures to follow the By-Laws. The only flier that appeared have any effect was one pointing out that the board had failed to hold an annual election in 2010...they responded by holding a 2011 election. However, I was unable to attend and I have not been able to acquire the meeting minutes or even determine the results of the election.

I agree that my efforts (fliers and weblog) have all been negative...and they not achieved any clear results.

What are some options for a positive approach to reach both homeowners and the board members? A few of us were thinking about having an unofficial neighborhood cook-out to try to get people talking to each other. I'm not sure that anyone will come...but it may be worth a try.

The last neighborhood party was in 2004 under a previous BOD that followed the BY-Laws and held monthly meetings. A dispute occurred in 2004 regarding a C&R violation which ultimately resulted in the resignation of that entire board and the previous PM. The current board is generally comprised of the folks that did not want to enforce that C&R. Once they controlled the BOD, they stopped holding meetings, preparing annual financial reports, and enforcing timely dues payment. It's sort of like a Haight-Ashbury experiment that never ended. Since then, they have been through several PMs (It apparently took some time to find a PM willing to let them blatantly ignore our By-laws and Florida Statutes).
Fox

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CharlesB17 on 10/07/2011 7:23 AM
I for one, do believe that educated owners are empowered owners. However, You could give a person or a group of people the power to change the world, and they would not do it unless they were motivated. And there in lies the problem in most associations. What motivates people to make changes? One possible option is money.
Our attorney had advised us against publishing a "Dead Beat" list. No one wins in a legal battle, except the attorneys. Regardless who wins the case. As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
IMHO, I am in agreement with TIM on this. I think publically airing the associations "Dirty Laundry" could potentially discourage sales in your neighborhood. And that alone, could be the beginning of your demise. With out new and fresh thinkers and workers coming in, that would want change and are not tired of the battle, then the status may most possibly remain the same.
I think Tim's method holds merit. As we have a website and members must log in, as the site is secure, to view any "Dirty Laundry" that is aired. This keeps it in the community and not in the public eye.

Motivation with education would revolutionize the world!

to follow up on that if you are publicly airing dirty laundry and your information is not 100% factual you could set the association or yourself up for a lawsuit if it can be proven a sale or sales was prevented by this information.

PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

A few of us were thinking about having an unofficial neighborhood cook-out to try to get people talking to each other. I'm not sure that anyone will come...but it may be worth a try. (Fox)
__

A few years ago I did a ‘welcome party’ for new owners and everyone came. Other efforts, like pot-luck parties failed. So, figure.
It is hard to say what works because demographics of every community vary. Our community has changed so dramatically during the last few years. We have never ever had a management company, spent only $1K on attorney’s fees in some 20 years. Now, insecure Presidents are rushing to their $300/hour attorneys with every trivial question even if they think they know the answer. The laws are getting more complicated and there is no agency governing HOAs. The real estate bubble put more pressure on many communities. One Association close by went thru four management companies in five years. It really is bizarre what is happening now.

A tend to think that a lot of people do not like confrontations nor do they like to be treated like little children. But money speaks and may be if you could show how the common property could be improved without much additional cost, people may think about it.
You are quite small, your annual income is very low but your delinquencies are quite high. That is surprising. Community of that size may not even need MC providing you have the BOD with sense of responsibility and basic management skills. But only you would know that. Otherwise, every HOA I know of here in S. Florida has problems.
PS: You know, getting Community Management License is quite easy in Florida and not expensive and gives one more authority.

CharlesB17
Posts: 112

Posted:

Halloween is coming. Get the community involved. Be creative and have a festival that is for adults and the children in the community!

CharlesB17
Posts: 112

Posted:

Get some local charities involved to help interest the community. Have a Chili cook off with a prize and donation to a charity. This should stir the community into action. If not, check and see how many people are living, meaning alive, in the homes in the community. Start a door to door campaign. Ask questions to determine the answers when they answer the door.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

My HOA was very apethetic when I moved in. I found many people weren't interested in attending the meetings or doing much but complaining. There were existing issues with the President (Who was a con-man). Eventually when I became President, I changed the culture of our HOA. Instead of being a "dicator" I was a "Fascillitator". A wise board member had bestowed me with this piece of wisdom. "Remember the money of the HOA is NOT your money, it is EVERYBODY's Money". This means when I made decisions as part of the BOD, it was on the behalf of ALL the owners. I respected that aspect and let people know that was my approach. It wasn't my personal decisions but the feedback of others that we the HOA did the things we did.

It is hard to get people to attend even a cook-out. I tried several attempts over the years with very little turn out. However, it seems the fact that I was having them (My own money), made an impact. I created a SEPARATE neighborhood watch program. (NOT funded by the HOA). Insituted a "Volunteer day" where the HOA provided the supplies and the members the labor on small odd jobs that needed to be done. My most successful event to this date is indeed the Halloween party/trick or treat event. We would have a party at the clubhouse and get the kids to come at a certain time. That way the members would know who the HOA kids were and could then make their own plans after the kids were finished. Plus the adults who weren't going to be home could drop off the candy at the party. Everyone got to meet eachother and had a good time.

There are always other things to help with communication. I printed out a "Welcome" brochure that covered the basics of the HOA. It was more for the people interested in purchasing homes. Basically explaining the dues and what they covered. No real HOA business just the basics and how to find a copy of the rules. Another helpful thing, I got 2 dogs...I'd walk my dogs daily throughout the neighborhood. Anyone could stop and talk to me. This way it wasn't just the opinions of those attending the meetings, but the one's who didn't as well. This way I could really get an idea of what the HOA wanted/needed. Sometimes it's good just to listen....

Former HOA President

CharlesB17
Posts: 112

Posted:

Read my post here http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/122471/view/topic/Default.aspx and you may get some ideas of what we do.
One thought comes to mind. What is the distance from right to left. As you travel East, you will find the west is a great distance away.
You may have placed yourself on the extreme of one of these. And it may take a long time for you to travel back to the middle. Placing yourself in a postion may have seemed like a good thing to do at the moment. But maybe, just maybe you could have approcahed this a little differently. You catch far more flies with honey than you do with salt. You seem to be a very intelligent person, maybe you should look at the measures some of the greates leaders of all times did in history to become great leaders. They did not accomplish these feats by making enemies and brute force. Maybe rethink your position. Just advice, take it or leave it. Just don't diatribe over my comments. It is the thought not the words that I offer.

FoxG (Florida)
Posts: 17

Posted:

Thanks to everyone for your advice…I agree that a positive approach is more effective than a negative one. My problem was that there were not many positives to work with here…and my intent (with the blog) was to try to make the homeowners aware of the numerous failures of our BOD and the CM.

I must admit that I was hoping that some homeowners might realize that the public airing of our HOA’s dirty laundry could negatively affect any future home sales efforts…and that someone with a future intent to sell would realize that changes would be needed in order to make the blog page go away.

Based on your comments, I was preparing to start toning-down the negatives on the blog...Yesterday I received word that a group of homeowners were considering stepping up to take over the BOD, replace the CM, and start following the By-Laws. It seems that at least one homeowner has plans to put his home on the market within the next couple of years (hopefully when the market is better). He realized that the blog’s airing of our HOA’s dirty laundry could seriously affect the salability of his home.

I have made it clear to him that the blog will either go away or go totally positive as he begins to assemble a new BOD and implement positive changes. I will advise him to avoid assigning blame for past mistakes and to avoid polarizing/opinionated people (like me) as he assembles the new BOD. We are fairly certain that the current BOD will step down with no fight.

This is a great forum…Thanks again to everyone for your input.
Fox

PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

Fox,

There is nothing wrong with ‘negative selling’. So, do not worry about that. I read your post of yesterday and it is fine although it is a little open ended in my view. In other words you did not close the sale. May be, suggesting, let’s talk about it at the BBQ party next week-end could do. Well, just a suggestion at this late hour.

PS: I would however delete names of all delinquent owners from your web site in a hurry.

FoxG (Florida)
Posts: 17

Posted:

Petunka,
I get what you mean...but I still want Fox to remain anonymous…and I want to be sure that they follow through before closing or reworking the page. They just put out a sign today announcing a board meeting this Monday night. This will be the first BOD meeting held in public here since early 2008.

It really looks like the blog may have worked…I’ll let you know Tuesday.
Thanks again.
Fox

FoxG (Florida)
Posts: 17

Posted:

"First Public BOD Meeting in Four Years"
The outcome of the meeting was not as positive as I had hoped…They did have an election in May, but they did not stay to decide on officers. This meeting (5 months later) was only to decide on officers. There were apparently only 4 people willing to be on the BOD and one of them is a very divisive member of the previous BOD.

The stated purpose of this meeting was only to decide who would occupy which office, but the "previous board guy" also put forward a motion to pay their attorney a second $3000 retainer. Apparently the CM and her attorney friend have convinced this guy that they need to keep this attorney on an annual $3000 retainer…I’m not sure why they think they need an attorney…they do not appear to be using him to collect late dues. They did send out several C&D letters concerning this blog.

Meeting Positives:
They did table the motion to pay the $3K and said that they would discuss budget issues at the next meeting.

They did tentatively schedule a meeting for next month.

This was the first properly-announced, publically-held board meeting since April of 2008.

Three out of the four new BOD members are “new blood” (not holdovers from old divisive BODs).

Meeting Negatives:
They mentioned that the CM does not wish to attend their “public” meetings.

It appears that the board is being ripped off annually by an attorney.

There was no mention of the $5700 in delinquent dues owed by 1/3 of our homeowners.

Several former BOD members attended the meeting and made several motions with no one reminding them that they could no longer make motions at board meetings.

Side Note:
The previous BOD members consider me to be a trouble maker because I had offered a dissenting opinion on several HOA issues in the past (before they stopped having "open" meetings). It had been suggested that this was disruptive and thus the reason that the BOD “was forced” to stop holding open meetings…and elections…I caused Fascism to breakout in the HOA? Go Figure… So this time I sat through that meeting without uttering a sound.

Any thoughts?
Fox

PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

'So this time I sat through that meeting without uttering a sound. Any thoughts? '

Fox,

Like your sense of humor. Not sure what to say. The MC must attend the meetings and submit her reports to the Board. So, the Board seems a little weak to me. Also, someone should suggest some type of ‘financial audit’ (review). Many By-laws allow for the Committee to do just that so there is no need for to pay an accountant. Finally, if your By-laws call for five directors there should be five directors. The BOD could appoint the fifth person, I think.

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