A service of:
Community123.com
Professional websites for HOAs & condos, since 2004
🎁 1st year FREE for HOATalk members! →
← Return to Topics List

Meeting Presider: President or Property Mgr.?

Started by CarolR11 • 18 replies • 2155 views

💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Our HOA always (except for a brief long-ago time) has had the board president preside at executive sessions and at the open meetings. The P.M. contributes a lot.

Now a director who dislikes me, the board pres., intensely has suggested that the P.M. preside. He claims that it's "very common."

What's your experience: Pres. or P.M? Pros & cons for each?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
What do your documents say as to who is to preside?

Typically, the duties of the Officers are defined in your Bylaws. Typically there is language there that says the President shall preside over all meetings of the Board and membership.
Davis-Stirling.com also lists presiding at meetings as the duties of the President.

Even if it is common for a PM to run the meetings. I'd be surprised if it wasn't in violation of the governing documents.

JamesC (Maryland)
Posts: 282
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CarolR11 on 09/30/2011 12:39 PM

What's your experience: Pres. or P.M? Pros & cons for each?

Carol:
Tim as usual has given you the best advice:

The "President" shall preside at all meetings of the Board of Directors, shall see that orders and resolutions of the Board are carried out, shall sign all leases, mortgages, deeds and other written instruments, and shall co-sign all checks and promissory notes.
The "Vice-President" shall act in the place and stead of the President in the event of his absence.

Nowhere does anything in our documents give the Property Manager or, in our case the Management Company the authority to chair a meeting of the Board of Directors or, Anyone Else on Any Occasion.
The PM is hired by the Board of Directors and is paid by your Association. How or why would any Director be sitting at a meeting being conducted by a management company representative????
What is your President of the Board of Directors doing at the time the PM is conducting meetings? STRANGE!!!

Jim
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Sorry, men, I should have added that our bylaws clearly state that the president presides at meetings.

But I'm mainly interested in how "very common" the practice of the PM presiding is.

When the then-PM, who was new, presided for a few meetings before I was on the board, the board & its president appeared to the rest of us homeowners to be incompetent--turns out, they were worse than incompetent. The prez just kind of sat there at meetings nodding about whatever the PM said.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CarolR11 on 09/30/2011 1:42 PM
I'm mainly interested in how "very common" the practice of the PM presiding is.

President presides in our Association
PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
' But I'm mainly interested in how "very common" the practice of the PM presiding is.'

Personally, I have never heard of it. A person who is NOT a director cannot run the BOD meetings. PM is no exception. Your PM should know that, I would think.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
The PM runs the meeting, but in my opinion it should be the President.
PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
'The PM runs the meeting, but in my opinion it should be the President. '

Richard I would hope the President or in his absence the VP should run the meeting. The PM reports/works for the Board and not the other way around, right?
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
I didn't say it was right, just how its been done. As the prez says "its what we pay them to do".
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Our documents also state that the president presides at all meetings, or in the president's absence, the vice president. And, that's the way we do it.

Our PM attends board meetings to provide the board with the status of the activities of the management company. The PM has no authority to preside, to vote, or even to participate in debate. Other that to give the report, our PM just listens and speaks only to respond to a question that might be asked.

The suggestion that the PM preside at meetings is preposterous. The PM should be informed in no uncertain terms, "it ain't gonna happen."
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Thank you all, so far. I may have been doubly unclear in my original post. I am the board president and it's a rather obnoxious & ignorant director who wants the PM to preside.

This director has asked the PM to place the matter on next month's agenda. The PM is new here with a few years' experience. I think she's a good one and she & I get along just fine.

Further comments on the topic of who should preside are welcome!
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CarolR11 on 09/30/2011 4:00 PM
Thank you all, so far. I may have been doubly unclear in my original post. I am the board president and it's a rather obnoxious & ignorant director who wants the PM to preside.

This director has asked the PM to place the matter on next month's agenda. The PM is new here with a few years' experience. I think she's a good one and she & I get along just fine.

Further comments on the topic of who should preside are welcome!

If your documents (most likely the bylaws) state that "the president shall preside" the item on the agenda relating to someone else presiding and any motion thereto is automatically out of order because it conflicts with the bylaws and no motion can do that. If the issue is raised at the next meeting you should rule it out of order. End of discussion, move on. Be firm. You have your documents to back you up. Any motion made and passed that conflicts with the bylaws is null and void; as if it never happened. Period.
FredB4 (Ohio)
Posts: 375
Posted:
Our president runs the board meeting and decides on what the agenda will be along with input from other board members. Allowing the PM to do either gives them too much control on the direction of the topics etc. Although our last PM was controling the agenda and running the meetings until I joined the board. She did happily change when requested to. It was mainly the result of a lazy board who wasn't doing it so the PM had to.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Thanks again to all. The PM is informing the director that the prez presides per our bylaws.

I also reviewed our contract with the MC and see that the MC must abide by our bylaws. A review of this contract also has been helpful in the past when a previous PM was overstepping.
SteveG4 (Texas)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Carol,

you, as president, should be in control of meetings, unless you appoint someone else to run the meetings. your bylaws should stipulate this. if not, then take control. as to your agenda, if it isn't stipulated, then you set the agenda as well.

as president, i have the vp set the agenda and run the meetings.

our BOD has not adoptes formal rules yet. we still use the bylaws.

in january, we most likely will adopt Robert's Rules. the issue with that is it will cut out almost all input from a president.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
You have to keep in mind that a HOA isn't exactly run by "experts". It's run by "Expert Volunteers"...The PM's job is to do what the BOD tells them to do as they are a contractor to the HOA. They can attend the meetings and put in some input/questions, but they act to the will of the HOA.

The HOA's that are run by their PM's are the kind that are run by their PM's....That is to say that the Owners/HOA members have given up their rights to manage themselves and have hired or been court-ordered a Property Manager. The PM isn't a paid contractor but the actual manager. The dues go to pay their salaries and to cover the bills of the HOA. Which is pretty much set at their will.

It sounds like you need to make it clear what your by-laws say in regards to meetings. They should state what is to be covered in the meetings as well. I'd also suggest bringing a copy of your rules to each meeting for reference purposes in case of questions...
Former HOA President
FredB4 (Ohio)
Posts: 375
Posted:
Steve,
It is a misconception that the president can't give input or vote at board meetings.Do some googling on simplified versions of Robert's Rules and find one that suits your situation. When we started looking at using Robert's Rules we had that same impression. If there is a tie the president generally gets the deciding vote but otherwise it is perferctly acceptable for the president to participate fully at meetings.
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Steve,

If you are a director, you have the right to debate and to vote at board meetings. Being president does not remove that right. Roberts Rules even states this on page 382. Normally, to preserve the neutrality associated with the presiding officer, the president always votes last, and then only when his/her vote would make a difference, as to break a tie. If the vote is a tie and the president is against the motion, the president need not vote at all, since a tie is not a majority and the motion fails. The president would vote in the affirmative if the vote is a tie and the president wishes the motion to pass.

Also, to preserve neutrality in a more formal setting, the president normally would vacate the chair (to the vice president) in order to participate in debate. However, Roberts Rules allows for informality for small boards, and the president does not have to relinquish the chair to participate in debate.

The short answer: If the president is a director, he or she participates in board meetings the same as any other board member, except to vote last, and then only when the vote affects the outcome.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:

Since I moved into this condo in late '04 (was elected to board in '06) the president always has participated in discussion, debate and s/he also votes. Every year at our Organizational Meeting following our annual meeting and election, the Board decides anew whether or not the president can make motions, vote etc. The unanimous vote has always been full participation for the president. We are a board of 7 so certainly fall into the "small board" category referred to below.

----------------------
VOTING BY PRESIDENT
Under Robert's Rules of Order, the president is NOT required to abstain from votes on motions. Unless an association's governing documents prohibit voting by the president, he/she may actively participate in board meetings and vote on all matters brought before the board.

PROCEDURE IN SMALL BOARDS. In a board meeting where there are not more than about a dozen members [directors] present, some of the formality that is necessary in a large assembly would hinder business. The rules governing such meetings are different from the rules that hold in other assemblies, in the following respects: . . . The chairman [of the board] can speak in discussion . . . [and] can make motions and usually votes on all questions. (Robert's Rules, 10th ed., pp. 470-471.)

The exception to voting by the president is when there is a conflict of interest on issues affecting the president.

Read more: Voting by President http://www.davis-stirling.com/MainMenu/MainIndex/Votingbythepresident/tabid/779/Default.aspx#ixzz1b4himWgD
from Davis-Stirling.com by Adams Kessler PLC.

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here

Terms of Use and Privacy Statement