JohnT19 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posts: 12
Posted:
Is the HOA president allowed to prevent a member from having a copy of the bylaws? Should a copy be available to all members? This is a mobile home community in Orlando, Orange coumty.
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hoa bylaws
Started by JohnT19 ⢠31 replies ⢠3530 views
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MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Your Convenants and Restrictions are PUBLIC records. They are available at your local courthouse in the RECORDS department. It is viewed as YOUR responsibility to be informed about the HOA rules and regulations. The HOA technically doesn't have to provide you those documents. They can offer you a copy at your expense. The former owner could have given you the documents at closing but they aren't required to. Those are your best options to get a copy other than going to the courthouse.
By-laws aren't required to be filed necessarily. They can be filed with the CC&R's but not neccessary. Your CC&R's are the more legally binding documents than the by-laws in most cases. By-laws can change and are more fluid than CC&R's. It's best to go to meetings and get copy of meeting notes if you can't get a copy of the by-laws themselves.
By-laws aren't required to be filed necessarily. They can be filed with the CC&R's but not neccessary. Your CC&R's are the more legally binding documents than the by-laws in most cases. By-laws can change and are more fluid than CC&R's. It's best to go to meetings and get copy of meeting notes if you can't get a copy of the by-laws themselves.
Former HOA President
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posts: 5,671
Posted:
John,
Welcome to HOATALK.
NO, A Board member should make sure that every member of the association have a copy of all of the governing documents, not try to prevent owners from having them. Florida Real Estate law states that any sale of a property must forward a copy of the governing documents to the buyer which in theory gives a new owner the governing docs. (This is not always followed by agents and sellers)
It goes further to say that a prospective buyer into a HOA must have the governing documents presented to them at or near the time of their offer with the ability to review these documents and remove the offer if the buyer feels that they do not wish to deal with the HOA CC&Rs, etc. (It used to be refusal within 48 hours after signing for the docs)
The association should provide you with a copy if you did not receive them at closing of your property. You may have to pay for the copy but you should have a copy to guide you thru the do's and don'ts of your rules, covenants and bylaws.
JohnT19 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posts: 12
Posted:
Thanks Donna. Does it matter thet this is a mobile home community with an HOA set up by the residents (we do not own the land only the homes). The governing law is Fl. Statute 723.075 but does not state anything about the bylaws. I just received an e-mail from the president and he stated he "could" not allow me a copy until it is brought up and approved by the board. I am not the only one who has requested and been denied bylaws and even meeting minutes by this board.
PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
John,
in other words you are not a member of the Association? True?
in other words you are not a member of the Association? True?
JohnT19 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posts: 12
Posted:
Yes I have been a member since 2010. Per the 723.075 statute all residents are members. Members are not required to pay dues, but one cannot vote unless they have joined a a paid member.
PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Sorry John, I did not mean to say 'member' I meant to say 'owner'. I am not clear about the owners vs. members rights, althought I would assume both have to comply with the By-laws. I need to read the chapter. Sorry again.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posts: 5,671
Posted:
John,
It does not matter if you are in a mobile home community in order to have all of the governing documents. If Bylaws are established, then you and all of the owners should have them. When you sell, you pass them on to the next owner.
The statement from the President is bothersome when he says that he "cannot allow" you to have them. He has the power to allow something? This is not a Board decision either. It is the law.(look under real estate transfer laws) It does not matter if you are a paying member or not, but as an owner, those documents should be in your posession.
FredB4 (Ohio)
Posts: 375
Posts: 375
Posted:
I would think it was illegal to deny an owner a copy of your CC&R's.
JohnT19 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posts: 12
Posted:
Thanks to all for the input. This will help me in my efforts.
To PetunkaM, if you are able to find additional information in statute 723 please let me know.
Thanks, John
To PetunkaM, if you are able to find additional information in statute 723 please let me know.
Thanks, John
PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
John,
can I assume the members of the park (mobile home owners) have formed the Association/Corporation as described here? If true, you must get a copy of the By-laws.
723.075 Homeownersâ associations.
(1) In order to exercise the rights provided in s. 723.071, the mobile home owners shall form an association in compliance with this section and ss. 723.077, 723.078, and 723.079, which shall be a corporation for profit or not for profit and of which not less than two-thirds of all of the mobile home owners within the park shall have consented, in writing, to become members or shareholders. Upon such consent by two-thirds of the mobile home owners, all consenting mobile home owners in the park and their successors shall become members of the association and shall be bound by the provisions of the articles of incorporation, the bylaws of the association, and such restrictions as may be properly promulgated pursuant thereto. The association shall have no member or shareholder who is not a bona fide owner of a mobile home located in the park. Upon incorporation and service of the notice described in s. 723.076, the association shall become the representative of the mobile home owners in all matters relating to this chapter.
OR
Does this provision apply?
723.0751 Mobile home subdivision homeownersâ association.
(1) In the event that no homeownersâ association has been created pursuant to ss. 720.301-720.312 to operate a mobile home subdivision, the owners of lots in such mobile home subdivision shall be authorized to create a mobile home subdivision homeownersâ association in the manner prescribed in ss. 723.075, 723.076, and 723.078 which shall have the powers and duties, to the extent applicable, set forth in ss. 723.002(2) and 723.074.
can I assume the members of the park (mobile home owners) have formed the Association/Corporation as described here? If true, you must get a copy of the By-laws.
723.075 Homeownersâ associations.
(1) In order to exercise the rights provided in s. 723.071, the mobile home owners shall form an association in compliance with this section and ss. 723.077, 723.078, and 723.079, which shall be a corporation for profit or not for profit and of which not less than two-thirds of all of the mobile home owners within the park shall have consented, in writing, to become members or shareholders. Upon such consent by two-thirds of the mobile home owners, all consenting mobile home owners in the park and their successors shall become members of the association and shall be bound by the provisions of the articles of incorporation, the bylaws of the association, and such restrictions as may be properly promulgated pursuant thereto. The association shall have no member or shareholder who is not a bona fide owner of a mobile home located in the park. Upon incorporation and service of the notice described in s. 723.076, the association shall become the representative of the mobile home owners in all matters relating to this chapter.
OR
Does this provision apply?
723.0751 Mobile home subdivision homeownersâ association.
(1) In the event that no homeownersâ association has been created pursuant to ss. 720.301-720.312 to operate a mobile home subdivision, the owners of lots in such mobile home subdivision shall be authorized to create a mobile home subdivision homeownersâ association in the manner prescribed in ss. 723.075, 723.076, and 723.078 which shall have the powers and duties, to the extent applicable, set forth in ss. 723.002(2) and 723.074.
PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
John,
Follow up question:
Do you know if the By-lwas in question were recorded in the county public records?
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
John:
to answer your question, if you are a member they should not be denying you these documents. Getting them is another story. I don't know about Florida, in our state bylaws are not filed with any entity, they are just kept by the association.
to answer your question, if you are a member they should not be denying you these documents. Getting them is another story. I don't know about Florida, in our state bylaws are not filed with any entity, they are just kept by the association.
VickiC1 (Texas)
Posts: 36
Posts: 36
Posted:
I would like to say that HOA Bylaws and CCRs SHOULD be public record--but unfortunately that is not always the case.
My HOA in TX had Bylaws and CCRS that were public record--filed with the county clerk by the original developer. But when our HOA went under control of homeowners/Board of directors--they did not file with the county.
They wrote new bylaws and kept them filed on personal computers of the Board presidents--never even signed the documents that they would email to some people who bought homes/lots in the subdivison. Some people got copies of the original documents that are the only ones on file so they LOOK like they are the HOA's--
not so
The CCRs are being used but the bylaws are totally different--and totally bad...
My HOA in TX had Bylaws and CCRS that were public record--filed with the county clerk by the original developer. But when our HOA went under control of homeowners/Board of directors--they did not file with the county.
They wrote new bylaws and kept them filed on personal computers of the Board presidents--never even signed the documents that they would email to some people who bought homes/lots in the subdivison. Some people got copies of the original documents that are the only ones on file so they LOOK like they are the HOA's--
not so
The CCRs are being used but the bylaws are totally different--and totally bad...
MichaelK11 (Texas)
Posts: 432
Posts: 432
Posted:
Vicki, you may already know that recent TX legislation may require all governing documents (and possibly even "policies" and "rules" enacted by the Board) to be filed publicly.
I believe this applies to mandatory HOAs empowered by deed restrictions, not to "neighborhood associations" with optional/voluntary membership (but I could be wrong).
I believe this applies to mandatory HOAs empowered by deed restrictions, not to "neighborhood associations" with optional/voluntary membership (but I could be wrong).
VickiC1 (Texas)
Posts: 36
Posts: 36
Posted:
Yes--I know about the legislature's changing of HOA laws...but I don't have good site with all the laws as enacted...
do you?
I went to the state's legislative search page and got info for bills I knew about--but don't know if there are other laws that impacted HOAs...
if you have websites to recommend I would appreciate the help
are you having to rewrite your HOA bylaws to conform with the new legislation?
Ours will have to be done but there are still ways to keep the HOA more vested in control of directors if the people who write the bylaws want to play that way...
I don't trust 4 of the people on our board--especially the person who is the "legal" head...
he is the person who trashed me at the first meeting by calling me a "terrorist"...
do you?
I went to the state's legislative search page and got info for bills I knew about--but don't know if there are other laws that impacted HOAs...
if you have websites to recommend I would appreciate the help
are you having to rewrite your HOA bylaws to conform with the new legislation?
Ours will have to be done but there are still ways to keep the HOA more vested in control of directors if the people who write the bylaws want to play that way...
I don't trust 4 of the people on our board--especially the person who is the "legal" head...
he is the person who trashed me at the first meeting by calling me a "terrorist"...
JohnT19 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posts: 12
Posted:
To PetunkaM, yes the statute 723.075 applies here as we are mobile home owners/residents/members. I went to the monthly association meeting last night. I was again denied a copy of the bylaws weth the board stating "they were denying me a copy as I had no right or need to have". In addition they continue to have a former resident who moved from the park over three years ago on the committee. This board votes and makes decisions on behalf of the residents (members) with out any notification or will bring a motion to the floor, vote and pass the motion with only 10 of the 400+ residents at the meeting.
JohnT19 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posts: 12
Posted:
From what I have beem told the by-laws were recorded in the county publis records.
PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
John,
This just does not make any sense. How can you comply with the By-laws if you are denied a copy? I believe 723.078 and 723.079 would also apply to you, right?
Well, here is the link to Orange County Public Records. Try to plug in the name of your HOA and see if you can find the By-laws. Also look for ALL amendments to the By-laws. If you need any help e-mail them or, ask your settlement attorney for assistance. On this website you can also find your deed. It should state it is a subject to certain documents.
http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagleweb/docSearch.jsp
You should also have a copy of the Articles of Incorporation and these are recorded with the Secretary of State (link below). Check the 2011 Annual Report and please tell if the Registered Agent is also on the Board.
http://sunbiz.org/corinam.html
This just does not make any sense. How can you comply with the By-laws if you are denied a copy? I believe 723.078 and 723.079 would also apply to you, right?
Well, here is the link to Orange County Public Records. Try to plug in the name of your HOA and see if you can find the By-laws. Also look for ALL amendments to the By-laws. If you need any help e-mail them or, ask your settlement attorney for assistance. On this website you can also find your deed. It should state it is a subject to certain documents.
http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagleweb/docSearch.jsp
You should also have a copy of the Articles of Incorporation and these are recorded with the Secretary of State (link below). Check the 2011 Annual Report and please tell if the Registered Agent is also on the Board.
http://sunbiz.org/corinam.html
JohnT19 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posts: 12
Posted:
PetunkaM, thank you and I will research this. This "board will put a motion to the floor, second it and then vote and pass with only 10 of the 420 members present. First, do you see this as correct and second , doing this how many members will I need to oust the current president. There are several member who along with me are fed up with this board. We are willing to oust the entire board but want to do it correctly. Also will proxy votes be ok?
Thanks John
Thanks John
PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT19 on 09/21/2011 6:55 AM
PetunkaM, thank you and I will research this. This "board will put a motion to the floor, second it and then vote and pass with only 10 of the 420 members present. First, do you see this as correct and second , doing this how many members will I need to oust the current president. There are several member who along with me are fed up with this board. We are willing to oust the entire board but want to do it correctly. Also will proxy votes be ok?
Thanks John
PetunkaM, thank you and I will research this. This "board will put a motion to the floor, second it and then vote and pass with only 10 of the 420 members present. First, do you see this as correct and second , doing this how many members will I need to oust the current president. There are several member who along with me are fed up with this board. We are willing to oust the entire board but want to do it correctly. Also will proxy votes be ok?
Thanks John
John,
it does not sound right. And, unfortunately I cannot answer your questions without reading both the Articles and the By-laws. Usually, it takes a majority to âoust the current president or any board memberâ. How many board members do you have? When is your annual meeting?
JohnT19 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posts: 12
Posted:
There are five board members and three committee members, one who is not a resident of or home owner. I believe the annual meeting is in February although I do not know for sure or recall ever seeing a notice postedfor one inthe past four years.
PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Well, John, it sounds like there might be a reason why the board is âhidingâ the By-laws. Hope you will find them on-line. What does the committee do?
JohnT19 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posts: 12
Posted:
I am sure there is a reason for "hiding" the by-laws. I did an extensive search thru the site links you sent earlier and have not found any documents. This makes me suspect they may not have filed them. As far as what the committee does I have no idea. The main focus of this group seems to be battling with the park management over trivial issues and mainly their (the board) own personal concerns.
PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
John,
There must be 2011 Annual Report filed with the Secretary of State. Sorry, I canât be of help, donât know the name of your HOA.
There must be 2011 Annual Report filed with the Secretary of State. Sorry, I canât be of help, donât know the name of your HOA.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posts: 5,671
Posted:
John,
HOA documents are filed in the Clerk of Circuit Courts data base, along with your Incorporation filing which is with the State of Florida in the Not For Profit Corporation division. Both of these Departments should have some kind of records of your exhistance.
JohnT19 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posts: 12
Posted:
PetunkaM, I did find the 2011 Annual report filed with the state along with the previous years. The HOA is Rock Springs Mobile Home Homeowners Asociation.
JohnT19 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posts: 12
Posted:
DonnaS, would these be filed with the State or County clerks office?
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posts: 5,671
Posted:
John,
I am sorry, I forgot to add that it is with the County. Now that I know the name of your HOA, I will try to locat something from up here in the hills of Tennessee.
PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
John,
I looked the Articles of Incorporation for your community. The park, originally owned by Rock Springs Investment, became HOA in 2006. Correct? Have you read the Articles? Is that it? If so, you have a very good reason to be concerned. I have never seen anything like this for any HOA.
Any chance you can contact the people originally on the Board in 2006/2007 and ask what in the world is going on? If that is not possible here is my only free advice:
Get a few owners together, find a barracuda Corporate or HOA attorney and have him write a $150 letter to the Registered Agent for your Corporation (which happens to be your Treasurer) asking for a copy of the Articles, the By-laws and perhaps even Rules and Regulations, if any, on your behalf. Heâll know what to do. Something does not seem right but I truly hope you will find some explanation.
PS: Just give an attorney a copy of the 2006 Articles and 2011 Annual Report. And tell him/her the Board refuses you to give a copy of the By-laws even though you are members and governed by 723.075. No need to mention the Committee, Annual meetings, votes, unless he asks.
I looked the Articles of Incorporation for your community. The park, originally owned by Rock Springs Investment, became HOA in 2006. Correct? Have you read the Articles? Is that it? If so, you have a very good reason to be concerned. I have never seen anything like this for any HOA.
Any chance you can contact the people originally on the Board in 2006/2007 and ask what in the world is going on? If that is not possible here is my only free advice:
Get a few owners together, find a barracuda Corporate or HOA attorney and have him write a $150 letter to the Registered Agent for your Corporation (which happens to be your Treasurer) asking for a copy of the Articles, the By-laws and perhaps even Rules and Regulations, if any, on your behalf. Heâll know what to do. Something does not seem right but I truly hope you will find some explanation.
PS: Just give an attorney a copy of the 2006 Articles and 2011 Annual Report. And tell him/her the Board refuses you to give a copy of the By-laws even though you are members and governed by 723.075. No need to mention the Committee, Annual meetings, votes, unless he asks.
JohnT19 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posts: 12
Posted:
PetunkaM, Where did you find this. I have not seen them but the name and date seem to be the righ one. Will you forward me the link?
Thanks, John
Thanks, John
PetunkaM (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
John,
There are two HOAs under very similar names in your area and I think I was looking at the wrong one filed under Document Number N06 000001691.
This morning on âSunbizâ I found 'Rock Springs Mobile Home Park Homeowners Association, Inc.' under N08000011312.
If this is the right one you were incorporated on 12/15/2008 and in 2011 your President is also Registered Agent for the Corporation (his name is Allen M.). Your Articles are pretty brief but clearly require By-laws although - according to the Articles - they do not have to be recorded.
NOTE: The Park may be older; It seems your corporation was dissolved in 1990s.. perhaps even twice. Not sure what is going on there, did not research it.
Anyway, I would contact anyone who is listed on the 2008 report. Your Association is listed on the second page or you can search by the Doc Number N08000011312. If you have any difficulties finding it let us know.
http://sunbiz.org/corinam.html
There are two HOAs under very similar names in your area and I think I was looking at the wrong one filed under Document Number N06 000001691.
This morning on âSunbizâ I found 'Rock Springs Mobile Home Park Homeowners Association, Inc.' under N08000011312.
If this is the right one you were incorporated on 12/15/2008 and in 2011 your President is also Registered Agent for the Corporation (his name is Allen M.). Your Articles are pretty brief but clearly require By-laws although - according to the Articles - they do not have to be recorded.
NOTE: The Park may be older; It seems your corporation was dissolved in 1990s.. perhaps even twice. Not sure what is going on there, did not research it.
Anyway, I would contact anyone who is listed on the 2008 report. Your Association is listed on the second page or you can search by the Doc Number N08000011312. If you have any difficulties finding it let us know.
http://sunbiz.org/corinam.html
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