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PWells (Washington)
Posts: 34
Posted:
My HOA has a new problem. And there are no laws in Washington State about verbal assults, so it makes it even harder to handle. So I'd like some advice. Here's the situation.

First thing...Our HOA has a 2 car perferred limit. And the Board can issue parking tickets to residence/owners violating parking rules.

The other night it was my turn to issue tickets. So I followed the regulations as required and had another board member witness me issue tickets. However I was out of tickets so I got one from the other member. The ticket had their initials on it.

One resident was ticketed for parking in another owners stall. The next morning the other board member had recieved the ticket back on their door with a very threatening and racial comments on it by the car owner. Later that same day in a local grocery store the car owner saw that board member and threatened bodily harm and legal actions against that board member.

Does anyone have any recommendations on how to handle this situation?

This is the 2nd Board Member that this owner threatened both phyiscal/legal/other harm too.

Any input would help.

PamW.

JulieS (Georgia)
Posts: 412
Posted:
I would think that written racial comments would be considered a threat or crime and should be reported to the police. Maybe a restraining order; or some type of fine could be issued through the association for being a nuisance if in your documents.
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Posted By PWells on 01/04/2007 5:08 PM
......... The next morning the other board member had recieved the ticket back on their door with a very threatening and racial comments on it by the car owner. Later that same day in a local grocery store the car owner saw that board member and threatened bodily harm and legal actions against that board member.

Does anyone have any recommendations on how to handle this situation?

This is the 2nd Board Member that this owner threatened both phyiscal/legal/other harm too.


First, the ticket with the racial comments on it should be kept as potential evidence. Second, returning the ticket doesn't relieve the person who received it from paying the consequences of the ticket.

Third, a threat of bodily harm should be reported to the local police. A formal complaint should be filed. Threats of "legal action" happen all the time. If the board member was within his or her rights to issue the ticket, there's nothing the recipient can legally do. It's vitally important for the HOA and BOD members not to back down because of threats, otherwise, any CC&Rs, "rules", etc. are worthless.

If the same person continues to threaten board members, he or she should receive a letter from the HOA attorney warning the person of the consequences of his or her conduct towards board members.


Ron
SC
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
i hesitate to believe that Washington has no laws about threats, verbal harassment, or simply assault (which is anything non-physical). I would suggest you research the laws on verbal abuse, hate crime, racial slurs, assault, libel, etc., and I am sure you will find a crime that fits.

I do not think any american over the age of 12 can live an average day without comitting something "illegal" under some law or another, so i doubly doubt that someone can harass you, yell, scream, threaten, etc. without being guilty of a dozen.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
I would keep the ticket or a copy of it with the racial writing on it as evidence and turn it over to the proper authorities. I highly doubt there is any state in this union that you can to a public place and threaten bodily harm to someone and not have consequences.
GloriaM (North Carolina)
Posts: 829
Posted:
Perhaps removing the board members from performing this duty and hiring a tow company could abate the problem. If you are managed by a management company, the board should consider having this a part of managements' duites. It is always difficult when it becomes homeowner against homeowner (even if it is a board member) when a neutral 3rd party is involved the board would have a barrier.
PWells (Washington)
Posts: 34
Posted:
Unforunately there is no Verbal Assult Law in this state. Which stinks. The board member that was accosted did file a complaint. The sheriff informed her that there is nothing they can do since it was only verbal other then creat a file. There are several copies made of the ticket with comments on it. 1 to the HOA's attorney, 1 for the management company, 1 for board files. This is the 2nd board member this resident has done this too.
Since this board member is scared for her safety she plans to place a restraining order on the resident. And the remaining board members will deal with that resident and not her.
The last board member (now retired) that accosted the same way but never went further then filing a complaint. I know this is going to get really ugly. I have instructed the other board members we must stand together and not buckle.
Thanks for all the advice. Our management company tends to forget to deal with things. So I get on their case to get things done.
Pam W
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Really? No laws about verbal assault? Nothing on threats? I can threaten to kill the governor of Washington, graphically describing my pleasure in the act, promise to cut his family into small pieces and throw them through a wood chipper, and there's nothing the state can do about it? I can yell and scream and shout at him, his escorts, the police officer, rant and rave and make a scene, and there is no law being broken?

I gotta move to Washington.
PWells (Washington)
Posts: 34
Posted:
No way to enforce verbal assult. Everything has to be done physical. If he had put a hand on her in any manner. That board member could take legal action. The only laws that are verbal are involving the DOT and Government Officials. Which I think is seriously lame.
However that board member did file a "no contact" against that renter. Then the board mailed a letter to the owner of the unit with a copy of the written ticket with the treaten that was written on it. In forming them that the board has a 0 tolerance of this type of behavior. At this time we are not asking for the renter to be removed but if the problem continues we have the option.
2 board members discovered that the board has the right to remove a renter that does not abid the CC&R's and House Rules Book. Each owner that rents out their unit must have their renter read the House Rules Book. If the owner or renter recieves a letter of violation. We include the entire page of CC&R's. It gets more complicated but it in the long run works out.
Pam W
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Posted By BrianB on 01/06/2007 4:50 PM

Really? No laws about verbal assault? Nothing on threats? I can threaten to kill the governor of Washington, graphically describing my pleasure in the act, promise to cut his family into small pieces and throw them through a wood chipper, and there's nothing the state can do about it? I can yell and scream and shout at him, his escorts, the police officer, rant and rave and make a scene, and there is no law being broken?


I've got to wonder also. The west coast can be pretty strange but I would expect better citizen protection than that.


Ron
SC
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Posted By PWells on 01/14/2007 5:56 PM

No way to enforce verbal assult. Everything has to be done physical. If he had put a hand on her in any manner. That board member could take legal action. The only laws that are verbal are involving the DOT and Government Officials. Which I think is seriously lame.
However that board member did file a "no contact" against that renter. Then the board mailed a letter to the owner of the unit with a copy of the written ticket with the treaten that was written on it. In forming them that the board has a 0 tolerance of this type of behavior. At this time we are not asking for the renter to be removed but if the problem continues we have the option.
2 board members discovered that the board has the right to remove a renter that does not abid the CC&R's and House Rules Book. Each owner that rents out their unit must have their renter read the House Rules Book. If the owner or renter recieves a letter of violation. We include the entire page of CC&R's. It gets more complicated but it in the long run works out.
Pam W


Your CC&Rs may be different but I wouldn't expect an HOA to be able to evice a tennant. Hold the owner (member) responsible, fine him/her, etc. but not deal with the tennant directly.

Best of luck though, you don't want this person around if he/she is unwilling to abide by the CC&Rs.


Ron
SC
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Ron the State of Ohio redid it's condo act a couple of years ago and allowed BOD's to add this to their By-Laws:

To initiate eviction proceedings, pursuant to Chapters 5321 and 1923 of the Revised Code, to evict a tenant. The action shall be brought by the Association, as the Unit Owner’s Agent, in the name of the Unit Owner. In addition to any procedures required by Chapters 5321 and 1923 of the Revised Code, the Association shall give the Unit Owner at least ten days written notice of the intended eviction action. The costs of any eviction action, including reasonable attorney’s fees, shall be charged to the Unit Owner and shall be the subject of a special assessment against the offending Unit and made a lien against that Unit.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Posted By GlenL on 01/15/2007 9:50 AM

Ron the State of Ohio redid it's condo act a couple of years ago and allowed BOD's to add this to their By-Laws: ..........


It's funny though that from the posts on this forum, some states seem to be giving HOAs the tools they need to maintain order while others seem to be making it more difficult to operats.


Ron
SC
DonN (Michigan)
Posts: 357
Posted:
PWells

I want to go back to fundamentals in a civil society. Regardless of what may be written in the CC&Rs, a board member is not a policeman, and the board does not have the authority to designate someone else as a policeman. Similarly, the board is not a court to assess guilt or innocence, and assign a penalty. In fact the courts in two states have so ruled. See discussion after Right #9 "Right of Notice and Stability in Rules and Charges" in a Statement of Rights I have posted at
.

The problems described by PWells are inherent in CC&Rs that seem to authorize board members to be legislators, police, prosecutors, judges, juries and assessors of penalties. What gave developers the right to do this? Why take dumb actions just because developers' attorney wrote dumb provisions into the CC&Rs? As many people have pointed out including James Madison in the Federalist Papers, this scheme is fundamentally wrong, and creates abuse, anger and worse.

While it costs more, the remedy to use is the circuit court which maintains the separation of powers. Everyone should have his/her day in court, not before an unqualified volunteer board — often behind closed doors. The board is obligated to enforce the CC&Rs, but has a choice on the method of enforcement. Use the courts. Preserve separation of powers.

My recommendation is that a board member should not hang tickets on vehicles or residences they don't own. Doing so implies the board has police powers, even though no board member is trained in being a policeman. Rather, the violation should be documented with pictures and witnesses. Then a courteous violation letter can be mailed to the owner providing the facts related to the violation, and requesting immediate corrective action. Maybe even a second one that is more stern is appropriate if corrective action is not taken, but only after documenting a second violation.

If corrective action is still not taken, file the lawsuit against the offending property owner and seek an injunction. Then it will be the court and not the board that weighs the facts and evidence, interprets the governing documents, decides on the validity of any rules, decides guilt or innocence, and assesses the penalty (most likely an injunction). The offending property owner will have his/her day in court. Maybe the board would be more careful about documentation and handling of violations if they had to explain their actions in public in a court of law. In some states, openness is called a sunshine law. When the light is turned on in a dark room, the cockroaches run for their holes.

Yes, it costs more for each case. But professional handling and willingness to let the decision be made in court will lead to more voluntary corrective and preventive action by owners and more trust between the board and members. Everyone is guaranteed his/her day in court before being fined or assessed other penalties.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Don, you make excellent points.. since this is essentially a contract dispute (A agreed to do X, did not do X, so B takes A to court to enforce contract to do X), the big difference is whether A agreed in writing/contract to allow B to be judge, jury and executioner. Much like when I sign certain contracts with some companies, i agree to mandatory arbitration, etc., in many HOA's an owner agrees to allow some non government entity to be judge and jury.

In theory, i believe you are correct: it would be nice to allow the courts/impartial third party to decide such disputes. In reality, I cannot imagine our court system being deluged with the thousands/millions of cases where someone left their garbage cans out after 5pm, or left a car dripping oil in a driveway. However, knowing that I would pay hundreds to thousands of dollars for letting my weed sprout because rather than a simple notice and $10 fine, I would have to defend myself in court and pay for the filing fee, attorney's time, court costs, etc., i would definately tow the line with my HOA rules.

lastly, my personal dig at the legal system: I would be happier to give everyone a shot at an impartial court system if I believed that a judge did any better at dispensing justice than an incompetent board member. It only takes one judge saying in open court (and i quote) "I don't care what the LAW says, I'm doing what I want in my court!" to sour me on the idea that judges are any better at the law than I am.

WilliamT (Arizona)
Posts: 489
Posted:
Posted By DonN on 01/16/2007 6:39 PM

Yes, it costs more for each case. But professional handling and willingness to let the decision be made in court will lead to more voluntary corrective and preventive action by owners and more trust between the board and members. Everyone is guaranteed his/her day in court before being fined or assessed other penalties.


Don, your idea is excellent in theory, but I see it is impractical and next to impossible.

First of all, to expect that owners who will fight the board over violations will comply with threats from an attorney of a lawsuit is, in my opinion, not based on reality. It doesn't bother this type owner that the board can place a lein on the home for non-payment of fines. And they would not be bothered by an attorney's letter. The response, if any, would likely be, so sue me, and I'll sue you for harassment. I actually believe that fines by the HOA and a lein work better.

Attorneys would be rediculed by the judges for bringing a ton of violations for garbage cans left out too long, shrubs not trimmed, house paint peeling, cars parked in illegal spots. So the respectable attorneys would never take these items to court so they don't suffer the wrath of the judge.

The attorney fees would be astronomical so the dues in a HOA would soar to an unacceptable amount so the owners would rebel and amend the bylaws.

The insurance rates would soar because for each law suit there would probably be a counter suit. With several losses in court the insurance company would drop the coverage.

Our compliance committee has recently stepped up the inspections that had been lacking for a long time. Within a week there were 50 parking violation letters, 10 trash violations and 5 other types. Assume that 2/3 (43) of them were corrected, and the remaining 1/3 (22) required legal action. It would be counter productive for board members to have to spend time with attorneys dealing with all the legal evidence that would be required, and incurring the expense for the HOA. I'm not even going to guess how much it would cost in legal fees to go through this maze, even if only 5 or 6 ended up in court.

Most people react to fines of $25 to $100 and as they seem them doubling, will correct the violation. A very few of them will ever let it get to the lein stage, and those would also fight any attorney attempts.

The argument about unprofessional board members being judge and jury is a valid one. However, we are not dealing with DNA evidence where experts are required, and case law is involved. We're dealing with homeowners who simply think the rules are not meant for them, and they will park their car where they want to, and leve their garbage can out as long as they please. Usually it's the MC that makes these inspections and they are neutral. They are not going to issue phantom violations to "get at" someone. They would prefer to see a harmonious commuity, the same as all reasonable board members would prefer.

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Don,

It is my belief that the reason we have HOAs, CC&Rs, etc. in the first place is that the governments did not want to get involved. They didn't want to build and maintain roads, recreation centers, pools, parks, greenways, etc. and they didn't want to get involved with parking and "quality of life" or "property value" issues such as piles of garbage in yards, outlandish architectural features or paint colors, etc. They did however, want the tax revenue from new developments and higher priced (and taxed) homes. When it comes to these issues, the HOA is the "police" by default.

The problems are caused by self centered people who buy (or rent) in a covenanted community with no intention of abiding by those covenants. They apparently believe that they are somehow "above the law (CC&Rs in this case)".

Your suggestion to mail or deliver a violation notice rather than to place a "ticket" on a vehicle is a good one if the owner of the vehicle is known. Otherwise, the only choice is to place a violation notice on the vehicle and document the violation in case it is repeated. If a vehicle is parked on association property in violation of association CC&Rs or "rules", the association can have it booted or towed if it comes to that.

Taking the violator to court is an option but it should be the last option. Not only is it expensive, but it can take months to even get to trial. In the meantime, the violator does what he or she pleases without penalty.

None of us really wants to be a "policeman", we just want our neighborhoods to remain as nice as they were when we chose our homes.

Ron
SC
RobertoG (California)
Posts: 10
Posted:
I'm agree Gloria, we have a board member that patrols our community in military uniform 4 times daily.

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