Panic condition and the HOA (arb)- please help

hi. i am looking for some thoughts on how to deal with our HOA and the rule that fences are not allowed unless on a perimeter property. We recently moved into what we thought was our dream home. The first week was great- expect when we realized that our neighbors behind us we on vacation and had returned. the family is a bunch of screamers, the mother, father and the 4 or so children. the parents often allow the children to hang out in the back yard for hours and hours and all they do is scream- (high pitch psychotic screaming). they have barely no backyard- is consists of a squeezed in lap pool, a full concrete yard and tall glass sliding doors. these were all approved by the arb and now they only accelerate the volume of noise they create. their screams bounce off of their concrete and house and project into our yard and THROUGH our windows and into our house.
we asked them to talk and expressed how much the volume travels into our home- but the father was very rude, told be to f off and the mother said there is nothing she can do to stop it.

the worse part is- my fiance has a panic anxiety condition and he just recently reached out and is seeking professional help with a certified psychiatrist and is also now enrolled in a cognitive behavioral program. we did not know he was suffering from panic attacks all these years- i honestly thought he was bipolar or mentally sick. with new hope that he may be able to learn to control his anxiety attacks this new issue with the neighbors has only made this situation worse. we purposely stay away from large crowds or loud events because it makes him have an episode and he becomes very ill. even now i am still trying understand it-i need to help him and decided that i need to stay by his side.

i spoke with the property manager and she suggested submitting plans to the ARB for putting up a 5' x 6' fountain and to contact local authorities and file noise complaints. the issue is that my fiance is only getting worse (he has been out of a job for 6 years and i finally had hope he might get better and start working again)- a fountain wont stop the screaming noise we hear every single day. local authorities said to document noise and record- i have.

now i am at the point that my fiance has lost 10 pounds in one week, he is constantly having attacks and if something doesn't stop the noise he will only get worse.

what are my options? his doctor said that he is protected under the American w Disabilities act and he would have no problem writing a letter stating his condition and our need for a fence that can decrease teh sound decibmals that come from their yard.

Does anyone have advice on how i should approach this to the HOA or ARB. i really dont want to go to court and have this get ugly. i have too much on my hands as is it with him sick and me working 14 hour days.

PLEASE HELP. any advice is greatly appreciated. thank you

The PM suggested a fountain- we were thinking of just going for it and apply for a fence. we arent asking for anything crazy- just the same fence that they allow on the perimeter of the neighborhood. (i can hear them screaming now as i write this actually. and im on the second floor in my office that faces the front of the house. the only place you cannot hear them in if you stand in my office closet- i actually took a nap in the closet yesterday just so i could fall asleep to anything but screaming.)

do you think i should include a letter describing what we are dealing with?

the architectural acoustics are horrible. even their foot steps vibrate on concrete and bounce into our yard. and im not just sensitive to sound- i lived in nyc for 9 years so im adjusted to sound.

thank you tim

John,

When is the last time that you had 4 to 8 year old little girls around you? It seems to be their way of communicating with each other. In a Food Court lately, we had a bunch of them playing/screaming on the carousel. Why do they all scream? I don't know why but they do.

Just simply apply for a fence.

There is no need to tell the HOA about all his health problems, disabilities, screaming girls, etc. None of that matters in a fence application. I wouldn't try the "need a fence because of disability" That is not going to fly.

I may sound very heartless but I agree your health situation is irrelevant to applying for a fence. That fence application still has to fit into the other designs of the neighborhood. That means it has to be wood or plastic if that is the approved materials. It also have to fit where it's allowed to be placed.

Listening to someone's "issues" why they need something is just annoying noise. It's like your being held captive because if they don't approve the fence then they are the "enemy". It produces a no win situation on BOTH sides. So just like everyone else you have to stick with the rules...Everyone has issues...I am sure those parents can't stand the screaming either but they are parents...

DonnaS,

Properly supervised children do not scream CONSTANTLY.
Properly supervised children occasionally 'scream with delite' and are quieted by their parents when it becomes incessant and bothersome to others.
Are the children permitted to scream constantly in school? in the library? at the movies? in a museum? in the doctor's office? at the annual HOA meeting? etc.
This once great nation is being split down the middle into 'haves' and 'have nots' ...... do you think a child who psychotically screams constantly has a chance at being a 'have' ?

I repeat (for the sake of the children as well as the OP):

contact your local 'bureau of child protective services' and describe the children's constant psychotic unsupervised screaming

you are greatly concerned as to why children would be screaming constantly

you are concerned for the children's welfare

perhaps there is some kind of emotional and/or verbal abuse?

why else would children scream CONSTANTLY?

be prepared to move away from the situation if necessary, there may actually be a REAL PROBLEM with one or both parents

after reading the repies and doing more research-- i believe i will have to submit my requests along with informing the HOA of his panic disorder and a doctor note stating his condition and the doctors credentials. I did extensive research and found a court ruling with an association in - Hawn vs Shoreline Towers. (google it if anyone is interested)

Mr. Hawn claimed he was disabled (within the meaning of the law) and his dog ‘Booster’ was a trained, certified service animal. He also provided the Board with two (2) letters, one from a psychologist who indicated Mr. Hawn suffered from severe panic attacks and prescribed a service animal to help him cope with his disability. The other letter was from a chiropractor who said a service animal would assist Mr. Hawn with mobility issues.

In this situation - the association WON in court because the court said Mr.Hawn submitted several pet requests BEFORE ever mentioning his panic disorder and need for a companion dog and Mr. Hawn only had two appointments each with the psychologist and chiropractor that wrote the initial letters.

I also discovered that panic/anxiety disorder IS protected by the discrimination act and i could file with Florida Commission on Human Relations (FCHR)-- I WOULD ONLY DO THIS IF THE ASSOCIATION DOESNT HELP OR COME TO AN AGREEMENT- i really dont want to be a bother to anyone.

We only RECENTLY discovered that my fiance is diagnosed with panic disorder and he (unlike Mr.Hawn) is enrolled in a Cognitive Behavioral Disorder Program (that meets 2 days avery week) and also he sees a board certified Psychiatrist 2 days a week. The fence or wall or whatever it might be is not a complete solution- but it CAN lower the decimal levels up to 10 dbs lower. If anyone here has first hand knowledge of how an autistic child can have over sensitive noise sensory- then they understand the importance of trying to REDUCE sound decimals. My fiances panic disorder is also somewhat similar- he gets overwhelmed by obnoxious visual and auditory levels.

Again- this is all new to us AFTER we moved here. For the past 15 years and throughout his high school years his panic disorder has been written off as behavioral problems and a learning disorder.

i really think i should consult a lawyer before i submit any requests to the ARB or the association. i am only 28 years old and hope to be able to live an enjoy my "prime" years. i want him to continue treatment and for the loud obnoxious family behind us to enjoy their life too- BUT within reasonable sound levels. This is just all very hard since the noise pollution is coming from children- a fine line to draw when it comes to noise pollution and kids just being kids.

great idea about not just recording the noise but measuring with decibel reader. the county suggested this and i think it will be my next step in proving with science(or math ?) that the levels are way into to area of noise pollution and excessive.

Hi Amy

Just had another thought about how to handle your noisy neighbors. Your problem made me do some reading on Code enforcement of problem neighbors. We own several homes in our community and I wondered how we would be able to deal with any problems caused by our tenants. Luckily we have had no problems and great tenants but was not sure if the wording of our leases covered this subject. My husband deals with our property manager, I just play the role of a back seat driver. and it is an age restricted community that is very quiet.

Along with the your efforts to get a wall/fence built, you should also explain to the board that because your fiance is protected under the ADA act (I realize that this has not clearly been established but let them be the first raise this issue) it is their responsibility to accommodate his disability by seeking IMMEDIATE compliance of noise abatement issues that are hopefully in your HOA rules. This may make them prioritize your issue. The one battle that homeowners usually seem to win when contesting HOA rules is non compliance of ADA laws. I know you do not want to cause problems but this may serve as a gentle reminder to them that your fiance's health and well being is at stake and needs to be dealt with as soon as possible.

Again, I am going to sound like a heartless individual here. It sounds like your going to force your way into having this fence installed. This is emotional hostage taking in my opinion on the matter. If you just apply for the fence like everyone else then deal with the issues that arise by doing so. That's what everyone else on the planet has to do when applying for things they want. Sometimes they get them, sometimes they get them with modification, and sometimes you don't get the things you want at all.

You haven't applied yet and your already make up reasons/excuses to have one installed. Already talking "handicap/lawyers/laws etc.." when you haven't even drafted the paperwork or gone to the board to discuss the issue? I am sorry but bringing in "my fiance has flashbacks/panic disorder" isn't a problem of your neighbors or your board. It is YOURS and your fiance's. Stop making it a reason to live in misery and complain about the people next door...

There I said it. Only compasionate for so much before I have to lay down the law and say "APPLY FOR THE FENCE AND DEAL WITH IT"!!! I REALLY REALLY hate it when someone tries to use emotional hostage taking to get something they want or to use someone to their advantage. We are adults...

Many good suggestions were presented here, so I won't belabor the point, But I will suggest one solution I did not read here.

It may be a bit more costly than a fence, but you could design a privacy wall with a well-placed canopy of foliage. You would be surprised how fast some trees grow and how thick and beautiful some flowering vines can become "overnight". Our local Costco has great bargains on plants. I was able to do this in my back yard and a formerly depressing view (of an ugly electrical pole) was transformed to a calming sea of green which now attracts wildlife of all kinds. Not only has the noise of barking dogs been muffled, but the view lifts my spirits so much that I now spend more time in the back of my house. During a campaign for a Cal-Trans soundwall, I learned that plants make a better sound barrier than a hard surface.

Another advantage is that a landscaping solution is also an enjoyable project which can have a calming effect in itself. Plus, it gets you and your fiance into the yard in a positive way, instead of forcing you to feel like prisoners in your house. Who knows, the exposure to nature may even calm the children themselves a bit.

And then, there are some other decorating tricks which can be used to muffle the noise from inside the house....

Melissa

I am surprised that as a former president of an HOA you have so little knowledge about ADA compliance in HOA communities

"handicap/lawyers/laws etc.." when you haven't even drafted the paperwork or gone to the board to discuss the issue? I am sorry but bringing in "my fiance has flashbacks/panic disorder" isn't a problem of your neighbors or your board. It is YOURS and your fiance's. Stop making it a reason to live in misery and complain about the people next door...

That statement sounds very mean spirited and more importantly, not true.

a definition of a protected class under ADA as posted on a University of Massachusetts Amherst site includes

A "disability" is defined as a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities. A person is considered disabled if the person has such a physical or mental impairment, has a record of such an impairment, or is regarded as having such an impairment. "Disability" covers a wide range of conditions and includes mobility, vision, hearing, or speech impairments, learning disabilities, chronic health conditions, emotional illnesses, AIDS, HIV positive, and a history of alcoholism or prior substance abuse

The doctor of Amy's fiance will document that he falls into this protected class. So it makes perfect sense that they will use this information when applying for the fence. What doesn't make sense is that as a former HOA president, you would have so little regard for a homeowner's distressful situation and no constructive advice on dealing with problem neighbors.

HOA,

I have to add my 2 cents worth in here. Make sure that when planting Bamboo, you use the "clumping" variety. Bamboo is considered invasive in every State that it grows in. It is a grass, just like Palm trees are.

Let me see...I know nothing about noisy neighbors? Mmm...I often work third shift which is Midnight to 8 am. My neighbors to the right of me have a swimming pool and are in constant party state. They are playing volleyball and knocking the balls into my yard. Which in turn makes my dogs bark...They play loud music not only during the night hours to 3 am but during the day as well. Which during the day is when the kid's show up who scream and cry...

My neighbor to the left of me has 3 yippee yappee poms. He also works on his loud motorcycle and cars. His son has a loud car he drives in and out at ALL hours of the day.

In general my whole neighborhood tends to mow and do lawncare projects early in the morning to avoid the heat of the day. So at around 7 am to sundown you can hear the "sweet hum" of lawnmowers and leaf blowers...I also have to deal with the screaming kids playing throughout the neighborhood.

I have put up a privacy fence between me and my neighbor. I have chainlink fencing between 2 other neighbors. There is no stopping any of the noises nor the wonderful smoke from their fire building from entering my home. My work schedule has me working various hours and hearing the "thump thump" of a ball being bounced back and forth is enough to drive one crazy...My neighbors live in the county so there are no chance of enforcement of any rule or laws...

So no...I can't say I have alot of empathy for a person who has screaming kids in their backyards. Some of us have to live with ALOT worse with ALOT less sleep....

So sorry to hear that...I just don't play into "Emotional Hostage" takers...My advice was simple and too the point. Ask for permission and deal with it. If you can't understand or take that advice then you just want to find a way to be passive aggressive on the issue. Which is advice I am NOT giving...

As for my situation...who cares? Why should I make anyone care? It's my situation and I deal with it...I am not asking anyone else into my problems. Enough said...

I agree with the clumping Bamboo, as it does not spread rampantly.
We added a nursery in our church. It was connected to the sanctuary. Noise was a concern. So, we built a wall where the sheetrock & studs on one side were not connected to the studs and sheetrock on the other side. We insulated it well.
The wall had twice the number of standard studs. However, we never hear anything from the nursery in the sanctuary and vice versa. The sound can not carry through to the other side because the sound wave can not travel through the sheetrock and stud on one side to the room on the other side.
It is expensive and difficult to re-engineer a home. But it is possible to re stud the interior side of the exterior walls, not allowing the interior studs / framing to touch the exterior walls. Thus, increasing the energy efficiency and reducing the noise.
This is just another option, even though it may not be feasible, practical, or financially possible.

Another option is to have your exterior wall facing your neighbor's brick veneered. Make sure the contractor does not connect the wall to your existing structure and fill it with foam. Thus, sound deadening and increased insulation.

Sometimes, you need to think outside a box. The box being the standard method of dealing with an issue. You are ultimately seeking to reduce the volume of the noise, not necessarily get your way and have a fence. This is not a privacy issue, it is a noise issue.

As far as an ADA issue, it is an ADA issue and falls under the guidelines. A disability can come or be diagnosed at anytime in a persons life.
This is not an emotional hostage situation. However, as i said a moment ago, look out side the box with the standard issues and solutions and find an alternative method to deal with the issue.

'nuff said - just my thoughts

Want sympathy? Join a panic disorder forum.
Want advice about applying for a fence at your HOA? Post here.

Case closed.

Amys6 from Florida originally posted " I am looking for some thoughts on how to deal with our HOA and the rule that fences are not allowed unless on a perimeter property."

Agreed the topic has veered off course. However, ADA is part of the equation for asking for a variance.
Variances are a everyday occurance.
The fence is desired to resolve a noise issue.
A fence will not reduce the noise unless it is designed properly. Look at the fences adjacent to Interstates that reduce noise in neighbor hoods next to the Interstate. They reduce sound by reflecting and refracting the sound. Some have holes in the metal to allow the dirt behind the metal to absorb some of the noise as well.
Building a conventional fence of wood or brick / block will not make much differance.
And then the issue arises you are going to have to challenge your HOA and possibly enter a court battle to get the fence that probably will not work in the first place.
A simpler solution is to one, make a living fence of hedges of your choice. This doesn't require any action / interaction between you and the HOA. Or, submit an architectural request to build the wall Against your house as I had previously suggested. And a last solution is to build a dirt berm in your back yard, plant shrubs on it and don't call it a fence, call it landscaping.

Well said Bruce

Dolores,

You're pretty much echoing my sentiments, posted above, that suggest Amy start by exploring alternative solutions that not only might work better, but might be more likely to be approved, or may not require any approval at all.

Failing that, should she use ADA? Of course. That's part of the equation. It's not only her right, but her obligation.

If I said that Joe Smith left Boston at 10AM and drove to Philadelphia, and then I asked, "what time will he be expected to arrive?", no one can answer that question. Why? Because they don't have all the information. I didn't mention any route, the average speed he typically drives at, whether he plans rest stops along the way; only where he was going from and to and the time he left.

If the board doesn't know that Amy is applying for approval to do something because of a disability, they don't have all the information they need to make an INFORMED decision. I, for one, in that case, would want to ask the HOA attorney for guidance and if the request was reasonable under ADA. Are we allowed to make exceptions in this case? If we deny the request could Amy make a case in court? If she does, based on the lawyer's experience and previous cases he is aware of, what would her chances be of winning? I think that by failing to mention the disability as a reason, she is not being fair to herself, nor is she being fair to the board and the association.

As a board member, I have to make a decision based on what I believe is in the best interests of the entire community; not on my personal feelings or emotions, sympathy, likes or dislikes. I would not be happy if someone withheld information and prevented me from making an informed decision.

Unfortunately, my guess is that Amy is no longer with us.

"Emotional hostage taker" is NOT in reference to sympathy or feel sorry for the person in any way. What it means is there are people out there that hold people "hostage" by guilt or take advantage of your "good" nature. I feel this poster is actually a victim of an emotional hostage taker. Something doesn't smell right with the fiance. She shouldn't be looking for the approval, her fiance should. He would be the one who would/could qualify for any kind of ADA variance NOT her. Why is she doing the work for him?

I've seen this situation ALOT and it breaks my heart. Maybe a wake up call is what she needs to see the situation she is in. There's a difference between a handicap person who can't open a jar because they have no hands...and one that is handicapped because you need to do everything for them...He seems to be latter...