Mandatory mediation

Started by RandyR4 • 24 replies • 2172 views

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RandyR4 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

I live in a HOA in Florida and have been harassed to death by the HOA, stalking physically threatening acts with a vehicle, where my wife was in fear for her life. This last act prompted the president come to our home and offer a truce, that if we did not pursue legal action for the threats unto my wife with a members car, they would no longer harass us in any manner. My wife who is disabled was home when the president showed at the door, she did not get a copy of what she signed, but there was a witness present over the age of 21 and the discussion leading up to signing the paper. ( I have since asked for a copy of the signed document and have yet to receive a response)

The issue now is a boat and trailer that was parked in my driveway temporarily.

The owner of the boat and I took it out fishing, which we have numerous times and as always when the owner drops me off at home we both rinse and wash the boat ( which is not mentioned in the by laws ( the by laws state that the boat will not be stored at any members home) This day after fishing the boat trailer had a flat, also there were nails in the other tire, this made the boat and trailer unsafe for travel on any roadway obviously and for safety reasons as well as the LAW the boat could not be moved and taken back with owner as was the usual.

I got a letter from the HOA Attorney stating mandatory mediation was required for this boat and trailer issue and I had 20 days to pick from their mediators offered and that this issue would be discussed at mediation.

Having never any intent to use my driveway for the owners boat and the only reason it was there was for obvious safety issues and since the boat trailer tires were repaired and the boat nor trailer an issue, I wrote to the HOA and addressed the need for mandatory mediation in this instance,explained the situation with the boat and trailer and it no longer an issue and why it was ever of issue, as well inquired as to the lack of communication before a threat of lawsuit or mediation were demanded, where it would entail costs of all members of the HOA due to the legal fees of all, and again, the boat and trailer no longer of issue.

I got no response.

I have 20 days to agree to the mediation which costs considerable money, money from me with a disabled wife as well as other members as the funds and dues the members pay are what funds these legal issues.

I was not fined for breaking this by law, even though there were circumstances to explain the situation, but I would much prefer a fine, then to pay near 900.00 or more dollars for a mediation, or that these funds are also taken from members dues, as they are.

I would expect that the Board would act in good faith and respond, yet that has not happened, and the president who came to my home and had my wife sign something to resolve the bodily harm threats with a vehicle of another on their board is no longer the president.

This HOA, is acting in bad faith and retaliating, continuing to harass me due to past issues such as described.

Any input is appreciated.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Randy,

If those things were happening to me, I would have not signed anything without having an attorney read it over. I would have contacted the police concerning all the threats and stalking and let the police handle that issue.

Send a copy of the letter you wrote to the Board about the trailer to their attorney. I would then seek advice from a local attorney as it appears that your Association no longer wishes to keep this issue out of the courts.

Tim

RandyR4 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Tim,

Thank you for your response. I think the problem is the HOA Attorney, in that he wants sponge as much money as he can from the HOA. I say this because in the minutes posted in 2006 ( just looking back now at things spoke of concerning FINES for issues such as what occurred here, the board spoke of having the Attorney write something up so that the HOA could issue fines for violations and the Attorneys thought were " Well you can't put liens on homes if they don't pay the fines, and it will cost a lot of money to impose the fines "

In regards to that, it is such a contradiction to state such, because it costs much more to go to direct mediation, and if you don't comply with mediation then instant lawsuit ( over something that is not even an issue any longer )

It is apparent what his intent is, that is to suck as much money as he can from the HOA.

As for not getting police involved in the prior acts, you may be right, hindsight of course, but them throwing up a white flag and coming to the home was felt to be done in good faith and may have been at the time, till a new president took over. I am not sure the new president knew of these acts, but he does now and he is still not responding and hes been online all day ( his AOL account logged in and he has gotten my letters, but ignoring them or waiting for the Attorney to respond in if he should respond, and knowing THIS Attorney, he's definitely push the issue, just because this Attorney is ruthless, he has had his license suspended in the past for other things, not sure what, but he is not an up and up Attorney.

I do not have money for Attorney, nor do I for mediation, or anything and it is rotten that with all that has occurred they are doing this to me ( us) my family.

Is there any law that states one has to be given a fine or notice before direct manditory medication ensues, it seems some steps had to be skipped here and if not, what is the point of mediating something that is no longer an issue at all, there is just nothing to mediate, does that stand or hold for anything, it will be a waste of board members time, my time and money, members time and money and the only people to profit in this is the mediator and the Attorney, thats it.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

You can't blame the lawyer. I wish you could but really they are just doing their job. A HOA typically can't appear in court without representation of a lawyer. That lawyer acts on the behalf of the HOA. That HOA board is the one that hired them and does what they want them to do. What else is the lawyer supposed to do? They gave you notification and your options available. If you don't take those options, then they will take other legal recourse.

Mediation isn't the end of the line. It's a good resource for the legal system to handle cases like yours. It means you are able to tell your side of the issue as well as the HOA. The decision reached between the two parties is legally binding. If a decision isn't reached then there are 2 options available. The first is another mandatory mediation session. Which means the case can never go to court and has to be mediated. A good example of this is if you buy a new car. Those deals go into mediation ONLY.

The second option of failed mediation, is to go to court. This means the lawsuit can be filed with the court for the court to decide the outcome. It takes it out of both sides hands in reaching an agreement. It may or may not be a good thing for either side.

If you have proof of what you say happened with the boat, then you don't have much to worry about. It can be resolved with a frank talk. Request a meeting with the board to discuss the issue to resolve it or wait until they pursue the issue to the next step.

As far as the harassment, that is a police matter and NOT a HOA one. Anytime one feels physically threatened it is a police matter. There is no police in the HOA. It's simply run by owners for the owners....

Former HOA President

RandyR4 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/14/2011 8:47 PM
You can't blame the lawyer. I wish you could but really they are just doing their job.

Yes, the lawyer is doing his job, hes doing it with his own monetary interest in effect. Read what was said in the minutes when the BOARD wanted to be bale to fine members for violations. The Attorney's only concern was that they would not be able to impose a lien on homes, thus, he would not benefit, however the board did purpose the Attorney add language to the bylaws stating such fines and allowing them to fine members, whether this ever was accomplished I am not sure the minutes are not the full minutes and as members we are not updated as to changes. The Attorney has his own interest at heart here, not the board directors or the members, he wants to use the HOA funds for his legal services, the greater the legal service the more money in his pocket. Its really black and white

A HOA typically can't appear in court without representation of a lawyer. That lawyer acts on the behalf of the HOA. That HOA board is the one that hired them and does what they want them to do.

They keep him employed full time, this was not a one time hiring episode. he is not needed in court, or in mediation, as this subject matter is not even of issue, it was for a short time, but knowing it is no longer an issue there is NO NEED for any mediation, what will we mediate a phantom boat stranded in my driveway with a a flat tire?

What else is the lawyer supposed to do? They gave you notification and your options available. If you don't take those options, then they will take other legal recourse.

What else could any of them do? Respond to my letters alerting them there is nothing to mediate, there was a safety issue, the boat and trailer were not and are not mine, nor titled in my name. the should save all the members dues they pay and not use it to pay an Attorney for nothing, as well not demand mandatory mediation costing thousands of dollars and if not agreed to mediate ( THIS NON EXISTENT ISSUE) expend more members dues on more legal proceedings, then they are clearly not warranted.

Mediation isn't the end of the line. It's a good resource for the legal system to handle cases like yours.

There is no case, the issue is non existent, the mediation is to come to some resolution over the boat and trailer that was stranded in my driveway, given that is not of issue, what do you purpose there is to mediate?

It means you are able to tell your side of the issue as well as the HOA.

The issues have been told, they have been told there was a safety issue that would also have endangered others on the public roadways, had the trailer pulled the boat away in that condition, this would also have broken County road laws, which trumps HOA bylaws

The decision reached between the two parties is legally binding. If a decision isn't reached then there are 2 options available.

Have you read the issues you are responding to? Forgive me for asking, but because of the responses you are giving, it appears you have not, or forgot part way through as you go along

The first is another mandatory mediation session. Which means the case can never go to court and has to be mediated. A good example of this is if you buy a new car. Those deals go into mediation ONLY.

This is beyond the scope of the situation referred to here

The second option of failed mediation, is to go to court. This means the lawsuit can be filed with the court for the court to decide the outcome. It takes it out of both sides hands in reaching an agreement. It may or may not be a good thing for either side.

I hardly think the court should waste anyone's time or money litigating a matter that has been resolved and the parties fail to respond in good faith, knowing the issue is a phantom issue, what do you purpose the Attorney should receive for litigating a matter that is of non issue, what do you feel the punishment should be for having a boat with a flat tire in my driveway and for protecting my own as well as others safety in traveling on public roadways driving in this condition? Who was damaged by the sight of that boat and trailer in my driveway? The law is the law, this I know, but considering the scope of what is happening here it becomes a matter of reasonableness and the reason is VOID and MUTE and they are aware of this

If you have proof of what you say happened with the boat, then you don't have much to worry about. It can be resolved with a frank talk. Request a meeting with the board to discuss the issue to resolve it or wait until they pursue the issue to the next step.

I have proof, but the frank talk is obviously not working as I purposed we have a meeting if they so wished and again no response to any of my good faith attempts, this is a matter of harassment and it is perpetrated by the Board member who threatened my wife with her motor vehicle with witnesses present, which prompted the HOA president into my home ( I was not present ) had no idea he would show on the door step and he knew this event took place and could not dispute it as there were witnesses to the event and asked my wife to not pursue any action and in turn they would stop harassing us, they have breached the agreement, whatever that was my disabled wife signed, which they have failed to give me a copy of as well as requested

As far as the harassment, that is a police matter and NOT a HOA one. Anytime one feels physically threatened it is a police matter. There is no police in the HOA. It's simply run by owners for the owners....

I understand this

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

You don't understand the reality of fines in a HOA. It's NOT a money making option for the HOA at all. So I can't imagine a lawyer or even the owners making much of a dime off a fine. Fines aren't the basis of any kind of income for an HOA. They also have to be placed into their documentation in order to even begin to place on anyone for punishment/enforcement. A HOA can't assign money coming from fines go to pay for a certain operational cost. That includes paying an attorney's salary.

A HOA that can afford it will have a lawyer on retainer at all times. It's just smart business. Which a HOA is a business as well as a quasi-government. Your HOA feels that to resolve issues within it, they choose mediation instead of the court system. They believe that neighbors can work things out amongst each other and faster if given the mediation option.

Just because you feel there is no issue, doesn't mean there isn't one. I am sure your approach has a different interpretation than you realize. You may want a second opinion as something in this scenerio is missing that would answer a few questions...

Former HOA President

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Former HOA President

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Randy,

How many days---exactly--was the boat in the driveway? You have so many issues going on here that it is hard to seperate them. Manditory mediation is required after several things happen.

You have to be noticed properly to state that the boat is in violation of the covenants. You must receive a second notice as to the violation with a certain time limit to correct the violation

If you have not corrected the violation after the stated days, then the HOA is allowed to start to fine you after a Board or Violations Committee meeting and fines may be up to $100.00 per day with a maximum of $1000.00

Only after mediation fails may the HOA schedule court. I think that someone has missed a few steps in this process.

Have you read the Statute? 720:311 Read all of it because you need to know what the process is.

RandyR4 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DonnaS on 06/16/2011 5:48 AM

Randy,

How many days---exactly--was the boat in the driveway? You have so many issues going on here that it is hard to seperate them. Mandatory mediation is required after several things happen.

I don't think the mandatory mediation is going to be of issue any longer, just waiting to have it confirmed.

You have to be noticed properly to state that the boat is in violation of the covenants. You must receive a second notice as to the violation with a certain time limit to correct the violation

No, there was an issue way back dated, but it was my boat in question, not this boat, that too was cleared up. They allow RV's to be unloaded and such for 48 hours, but have no written policy on a boat needing unloaded or other, but I do abide the rules, unless unfortunate circumstances get in the way, as was the issue here current, but never got any notices

If you have not corrected the violation after the stated days, then the HOA is allowed to start to fine you after a Board or Violations Committee meeting and fines may be up to $100.00 per day with a maximum of $1000.00

Thanks for your input, I never got a fine, no notice nothing, except demand from Attorney for mandatory mediation, and I believe that will be resolved soon, since there is nothing to mediate and the issue was a dead issue anyway, it was taken care of. I wonder if they THOUGHT I was seriously just trying to store someones boat for them, I mean really, that was not the case at all, but if they thought that, how could they, did they really think I was going to mediate to argue that I could do this? I know the rules, I did not break them on purpose, anyway, again, hope it will be resolved soon.

Only after mediation fails may the HOA schedule court. I think that someone has missed a few steps in this process.

Have you read the Statute? 720:311 Read all of it because you need to know what the process is.

RandyR4 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/16/2011 4:33 AM
You don't understand the reality of fines in a HOA.

Melissa, you haven't understood anything I have written here, the proof of this is in your responses, sorry to say

It's NOT a money making option for the HOA at all.

The fines are irrelevant to my argument here, how do you miss this, its the mandatory mediation I was opposed to ( Seriously) did you read?

So I can't imagine a lawyer or even the owners making much of a dime off a fine. Fines aren't the basis of any kind of income for an HOA. They also have to be placed into their documentation in order to even begin to place on anyone for punishment/enforcement. A HOA can't assign money coming from fines go to pay for a certain operational cost. That includes paying an attorney's salary.

Totally not relevant to any of my postings ( scratching head )

A HOA that can afford it will have a lawyer on retainer at all times. It's just smart business. Which a HOA is a business as well as a quasi-government. Your HOA feels that to resolve issues within it, they choose mediation instead of the court system. They believe that neighbors can work things out amongst each other and faster if given the mediation option.

I just hope the others here can see your response has nothing to do with the statements I made. Mediation comes AFTER an issue is not resolved after alerting someone by other means, this never occurred here, please READ

Just because you feel there is no issue, doesn't mean there isn't one.

HUH ?????? I am sure of what the issue WAS, it was on the demand for mediation it was a singular entry, no confusion, not that I can be easily confused. So, with all due respect, it is FACT the the ISSUE was not confused and I am certain that because the issue listed is no longer an issue as stated in the demand, that means there is NO ISSUE

I I am sure your approach has a different interpretation than you realize. You may want a second opinion as something in this scenerio is missing that would answer a few questions...

Your sure? How are you sure? There is nothing missing here Melissa, save for comprehension and not on my part. Thanks much.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Randy,

I sort of like to play detective and something just came to mind.

Please correct me if I am wrong. When you started the thread, this was about a friends boat that was in your drive because of a flat tire and being unsafe to drive. Right?

Then further down you are saying that on another time there was an issue with your boat in the drive which you cleared up Right?

Could there be a possibility that someone thought that you had a boat violation that you cleared up and then a boat reappears which would be a violation of the previous agreement to remove the boat? Any chance this happened?

Some people don't know the difference between a speed boat and a fishing boat, be they red or blue. A boat is a boat to some. Ya gotta love this theory.

RandyR4 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DonnaS on 06/16/2011 11:08 AM

Randy,

I sort of like to play detective and something just came to mind.

Please correct me if I am wrong. When you started the thread, this was about a friends boat that was in your drive because of a flat tire and being unsafe to drive. Right?
That is correct

Then further down you are saying that on another time there was an issue with your boat in the drive which you cleared up Right?

That is correct too and in my saying that I was giving them the benefit of doubt and admittedly stated so, however I believe I pointed out that that was a very long time ago, my giving them the benefit of doubt and a reasonable expectation in turn would be doing the same for me, learn if there is a problem before threatening lawsuit. I probably should go back to read what I wrote about the incident LONG ago, none the less, I had considered that myself.

Could there be a possibility that someone thought that you had a boat violation that you cleared up and then a boat reappears which would be a violation of the previous agreement to remove the boat? Any chance this happened?

Yes, this is true as said above.

Some people don't know the difference between a speed boat and a fishing boat, be they red or blue. A boat is a boat to some. Ya gotta love this theory.

Yes, they may be confused, but the reality with all that went on considering my wife threatened with a car from this same member, a disabled wife mind you, and other things that they agreed they were guilty of, one being stalking, well I consider the source and contention in which this all came about

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

So, This is all on the road to a solution hopefully. Because there are several lessons to be learned from this on both sides and I figured it out without mediation, my fee shall be $1,000,000.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

.I think the problem is the HOA Attorney, in that he wants sponge as much money as he can from the HOA. I say this because in the minutes posted in 2006 ( just looking back now at things spoke of concerning FINES for issues such as what occurred here, the board spoke of having the Attorney write something up so that the HOA could issue fines for violations and the Attorneys thought were " Well you can't put liens on homes if they don't pay the fines, and it will cost a lot of money to impose the fines "

Did I miss the quote from you from above? NOT getting the part where the attorney is sponging off the HOA and using fines to do so? The lawyer states themselves and warns the board that you can't put liens on houses for fines, and it would be too expensive for them to hire him and to enforce the fines if they did do it. So how is this sponging by the attorney??? Seems the attorney was CORRECT telling the HOA it was useless for them to make an effort to write rules in issuing fines.

I think your one of those people who just wants to hear what they want to hear...Let's just make everything not make sense that other people try to convey to you as an excuse to get by in life...

Former HOA President

RandyR4 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DonnaS on 06/16/2011 12:16 PM

So, This is all on the road to a solution hopefully. Because there are several lessons to be learned from this on both sides and I figured it out without mediation, my fee shall be $1,000,000.

Donna, the checks in the mail

RandyR4 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/16/2011 2:44 PM
.I think the problem is the HOA Attorney, in that he wants sponge as much money as he can from the HOA. I say this because in the minutes posted in 2006 ( just looking back now at things spoke of concerning FINES for issues such as what occurred here, the board spoke of having the Attorney write something up so that the HOA could issue fines for violations and the Attorneys thought were " Well you can't put liens on homes if they don't pay the fines, and it will cost a lot of money to impose the fines "

Did I miss the quote from you from above? NOT getting the part where the attorney is sponging off the HOA and using fines to do so? The lawyer states themselves and warns the board that you can't put liens on houses for fines, and it would be too expensive for them to hire him and to enforce the fines if they did do it. So how is this sponging by the attorney??? Seems the attorney was CORRECT telling the HOA it was useless for them to make an effort to write rules in issuing fines.

No. You see in the minutes the members asked the Attorney to add language tot he bylaws that would allow them to FINE members for violations, as this had not been an option for them in the past. The board member stated the Attorneys response was if you do that it won't allow you to put liens on the property and it will be hard to collect and cost money to collect the fines. So my logical thinking and considering this Attorney's theme and info from the website the Attorney owns.
I will not mention names is, that he can show HOA's hoe to foreclose on homes for assessments and such because the lenders and banks only have a security interest, where the HOA has rights to do so and they will not owe a single penny to the bank, basically just take someones home, so after knowing that and reading from the minutes and the response to adding language to the bylaws for fines, its occurred to me, if the HOA was able to issue FINES, they would not need the Attorney's services to issue mediation demands, or lawsuits, or anything for the fines, the board would have authority to issue fines themselves without any letters written by the Attorney, this would cut a profit that the Attorney was used to receiving, because those services wouldn't be needed for that portion, further this would reduce the Attorneys funds from them. How would it COST THE HOA money to issue FINES, if after the Attorney changed the language in the bylaws which would then give the HOA authority to issue fines, instead of the Attorney issuing those warning letters and receiving funds for that. Do you get it now? AS IF the Attorney would not be looking for the most profitable recourse for them self. I was not born yesterday.

I think your one of those people who just wants to hear what they want to hear...Let's just make everything not make sense that other people try to convey to you as an excuse to get by in life...

you can think what you like.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Randy and Noelle too,

The tag that I am pasting is from probably the largest HOA attorney groups in the country. I go to this group often when I need to see some generic legal opinion. My 55+ HOA uses them down there in Martin County. from this tag, you can go many places within their site. At least you can see where others have made mistakes and perhaps you can see where you are in relation to your own Boards

"http://www.floridacondohoalawblog.com/tags/instant-messages/

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

As a former President AND responsible for writing violation letters I can tell you first hand, an Attorney is NOT required or needed to write a violation letter to any resident. It is up to the HOA to HIRE the attorney to do that work on their behalf. Some members of the HOA feel that a letter from an attorney has more "teeth" in it than a letter coming from a board member/president.

A lawyer is a CONTRACTOR for the HOA and does what the board wants them to do.(as long as it is legal). If your HOA CHOOSES to hire the lawyer to do certain items such as warning letters or requests for mediation, that up to them ONLY. A HOA with limited legal knowledge will often depend on legal services whether they need it or not. An attorney doesn't work for free. Which you perceive as the lawyer taking advantage when in reality they are doing a job.

From the reports I read, the HOA has a pretty reasonable attorney working for them. I've worked with many attorneys. I also have taken legal courses in college. So I can see where the attorney is coming from and it's not from some evil greedy place.

Former HOA President

RandyR4 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/16/2011 7:14 PM
As a former President AND responsible for writing violation letters I can tell you first hand, an Attorney is NOT required or needed to write a violation letter to any resident. It is up to the HOA to HIRE the attorney to do that work on their behalf. Some members of the HOA feel that a letter from an attorney has more "teeth" in it than a letter coming from a board member/president.

A lawyer is a CONTRACTOR for the HOA and does what the board wants them to do.(as long as it is legal). If your HOA CHOOSES to hire the lawyer to do certain items such as warning letters or requests for mediation, that up to them ONLY. A HOA with limited legal knowledge will often depend on legal services whether they need it or not. An attorney doesn't work for free. Which you perceive as the lawyer taking advantage when in reality they are doing a job.

From the reports I read, the HOA has a pretty reasonable attorney working for them. I've worked with many attorneys. I also have taken legal courses in college. So I can see where the attorney is coming from and it's not from some evil greedy place.

I have reason to believe otherwise, of course your not going to agree, but then you don't have all the details I do, but thats okay. I am just trying to rise above evil and yes it is evil. I don't want to argue with you, so lets throw up a white flag and leave this alone

Donna, thank you for the link.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

My arm had a cramp but wanted to address the lien issue. Fines can NOT be used as the basis for liens or foreclosures. It is ONLY non-payment of DUES. Fines can't be added onto the lien if it is filed for the unpaid dues either. A lien can ONLY be for unpaid dues, late fees on those dues, legal interest rate, and legal fees involved in filing the lien.

The lawyer stating that it was a bad idea for the HOA to add the fines into their laws is very sound advice. There really is very limited legal ways of collecting fines for a HOA even if written or not. The ONLY legal instrucments available are liens, foreclosures, or lawsuits. Which lawsuits are considered "Judgements" but with less teeth and guarantee of getting paid. A lien is a Judgement but the owner can't sell their property until they pay the lien off.

A foreclosure is a last ditch effort and should rarily be used. It only works in the right circumstance and isn't a money making proposition for the HOA. It basically just stops the bleeding of the non-payer and gives the HOA a chance at a new tenant who pays their dues. The bank and the lawyer are the winners.

People who are against liens or foreclosures overlook the facts and reality. Why is it that if a contractor working on your house stops working without finishing the job, YOU as an INDIVIDUAL can go to the courthouse and file a mechanic's lien for the money owed? However, that same right shouldn't be allowed to a HOA when it's source of income isn't paid? Lawsuits are just bad ideas to file and aren't as good as liens.

Being against the ability to foreclose is a bit ridicolous as well. If you sold a car to somebody for payments and they stop paying 2 months into 12 months of payments...Wouldn't you go and find that car and take it away? It's the same with a property in the HOA. A owner doesn't pay, then why should everybody else pick up their payments and not be able to kick them out?

Take another look at your logic...There's business in a HOA not always personal issues...

Former HOA President

RandyR4 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/16/2011 7:35 PM
My arm had a cramp but wanted to address the lien issue. Fines can NOT be used as the basis for liens or foreclosures. It is ONLY non-payment of DUES. Fines can't be added onto the lien if it is filed for the unpaid dues either. A lien can ONLY be for unpaid dues, late fees on those dues, legal interest rate, and legal fees involved in filing the lien.

The lawyer stating that it was a bad idea for the HOA to add the fines into their laws is very sound advice. There really is very limited legal ways of collecting fines for a HOA even if written or not. The ONLY legal instrucments available are liens, foreclosures, or lawsuits. Which lawsuits are considered "Judgements" but with less teeth and guarantee of getting paid. A lien is a Judgement but the owner can't sell their property until they pay the lien off.

A foreclosure is a last ditch effort and should rarily be used. It only works in the right circumstance and isn't a money making proposition for the HOA. It basically just stops the bleeding of the non-payer and gives the HOA a chance at a new tenant who pays their dues. The bank and the lawyer are the winners.

People who are against liens or foreclosures overlook the facts and reality. Why is it that if a contractor working on your house stops working without finishing the job, YOU as an INDIVIDUAL can go to the courthouse and file a mechanic's lien for the money owed? However, that same right shouldn't be allowed to a HOA when it's source of income isn't paid? Lawsuits are just bad ideas to file and aren't as good as liens.

Being against the ability to foreclose is a bit ridicolous as well. If you sold a car to somebody for payments and they stop paying 2 months into 12 months of payments...Wouldn't you go and find that car and take it away? It's the same with a property in the HOA. A owner doesn't pay, then why should everybody else pick up their payments and not be able to kick them out?

Take another look at your logic...There's business in a HOA not always personal issues...

I was writing you a long drawn outline of how you have proved my point exactly that the only one who would lose profits is Attorney if fines were in the bylaws and the HOA wrote their own letters to members alerting them of the violation and added interest if not paid, but my page disappeared in writing.

You have done nothing but prove my points in what you have written here, and so I can't do anything but thank you for seeing my points and how write I am by who profits and that is the HOA. One other issue is that the HOA do stand to gain by foreclosing a property/home, not a condo a BIG HOUSE.

your analogy of it being okay to foreclose and steal someones house for dues that are less then a car payment in so many instances is comparing a mansion to a trailer. Its not so much that the member didn't pay the dues, its the legal fee's the Attorney adds on that make it impossible without taking out a loan topay the Attorney fee's and THAT is whats WRONG! If one were at risk for losing their car for non payment, in the notice they would say PAY UP back payments and late fees or we're going to take ownership.

In the HOA realm with the Attorney involvement, the letter you get says you will PAY YOUR BACK DUES WITH INTEREST PLUS YOU WILL MY ATTORNEY FEE's. the back dues may be 200 3400 dollars the Attorney fee's are 3 to 4 sometimes 5,000.00 dollars. This is HOW the HOA Attorney's help HOA steal someones home, and yes as I posted before there is one imparticular who gives a whole run down on just how that is done.

RandyR4 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

my dog jumped in lap, was not done and needs editing...anyway one area to edit is attorney profits. i'll add more later maybe, its pointless to argue when its truth as i posted.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RandyR4 on 06/16/2011 20:47 PM
your analogy of it being okay to foreclose and steal someones house for dues that are less then a car payment in so many instances is comparing a mansion to a trailer. Its not so much that the member didn't pay the dues, its the legal fee's the Attorney adds on that make it impossible without taking out a loan topay the Attorney fee's and THAT is whats WRONG! If one were at risk for losing their car for non payment, in the notice they would say PAY UP back payments and late fees or we're going to take ownership.

Randy,

I agree that once an Association must involve an attorney the legal fees and court costs can be more then what is initially owed.

Typically, Associations do (and should) send late notices prior to involving an attorney. I also believe that when members communicate a hardship that the Association should try to work with them. However, it has been my experience that most members simply ignore the warnings and do not try to communicate hardships with the board.

At some point, the Association has no choice but to take the collection process for monies owed to a different level. Otherwise, they can lose any opportunity to collect.

I can also see how someone being foreclosed on and may lose their home for what appears to be a small sum of money could consider it a form stealing. I wonder if that same individual could see that by failing to pay the assessment that they are also involved in a form of stealing from their neighbors, as it's the neighbors who will need to pay higher assessments to maintain the common areas, provide trash service, etc., because that individual isn't paying their fair share of the costs.

Granted, from your initial posting your issue was about being assessed fines for not being in compliance with the rules. However, your last post mentioned dues which usually refer to annual assessments. This is why I made the above comments.

I also don't think that, based on your postings, the issue with the boat is the only issue between you and the Association or you and specific members of the Board. I believe that this specific issue could have been and should have resolved at the Association level and legal should not have been brought into it. However, that is 20-20 hindsight.

Since the issue has gone to the level of involving potential legal actions, I would strongly urge you to do what has to be done to resolve this issue. If the Board is unwilling to talk with you, then gather support and elect Directors who will want to speak with you and settle this issue. If there isn't enough time to do that, you may need to attend mediation. It's possible that within mediation, you can agree that each side pays their own legal fees and split the cost of mediation.

Tim

RandyR4 (Florida)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 06/16/2011 8:48 PM

Tim, you've been kind here. I assure you there is no other issue with the HOA then what I said in my first post,and if you read my other posts you will see the issue is resolved, or it should be soon without mediation, hence there was nothing to mediate. If your suggesting because I mentioned the foreclosure issue, that is not anything pertaining to me, its things I have come across through message boards, others complaints when searching google for my issues, it brought up other issues such as that and well one search and read led to another and was shocked. I also looked up the particular Attorney's website and saw that one and how he explains how its done. ( WHEW ) is all I can say on that, in my opinion its not right for reasons I stated earlier. I appreciate all the input, it does seem others keep trying to assume there is something more, something missing, and there just isn't, I am sorry of what my issues were, were too boring on their own accounts.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Randy,

I thank you for the kind words. I missed the posting that the issue was resolved and without the need for mediation. I'm glad that it worked out

As your finding out, the more and more you dig into how Associations are ran vs. should be ran it can become frustrating. More so if the problems are within your own association.

Keep in touch and share what you've learned so others can benefit from your experiences.

Tim

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