Owner RIGHTS?

Dyana,

There are rights and laws----all spelled out in your homeowner documents. When you buy into a HOA community, you sign an ageement that you will pay the dues and follow the rules.

I am assuming that you are a condo by the parking restriction and guest spots. What people are staying with you (seemingly for extended times?) The association apparently has time limits on guest passes, therefore the Board is questioning the "guests" and if the guests are extended stay people, the Board will question who is also in the unit. This is not uncommon in HOAs. How big is your unit and why do you have 4 vehicles when probably everyone else has 2. There are limits to living in shared space dwellings and there are neighbors close by who are entitled to thespaces as well so the Board sounds like it is doing the right thing in restricting your parking space .

Much of what a board can and can't do will be in Florida Condominium law, accessible by the internet. You need to be familiar with both your documents and Florida law.
Jeanne

We are Townhomes - not Condos - and there are plenty of parking spaces.
My question deals more with "THIS IS MY HOME - I OWN THIS HOUSE" - I am an owner, not a renter - and the I can not believe that an HOA can tell an owner of a home that they have no rights to privacy within their own home.

I did indeed receive a document when I purchased - and I have read it (many times). The issue with this document and ALL the others (CC&Rs/Regulations, etc), is that they are not followed by the Board and they change them on a dime. And they do not send out any type of notifications of change, nor have they presented a new copy of anything either.

Last time I checked - I do not live in a hotel - this is my PRIVATE HOME (tenant???? what is that to a home owner????). I will be damed if I am going to have three people tell me how long a guest can stay in my home. It is none of their business how long someone is staying with me - but, as an owner I should have some rights against my privacy being invaded upon.

Well put Janet. I, seeing the other side of the issue here and as a former Board member, I would also have the responsibility to respect the governing documents of my association. Those CC&Rs may contain covenants that allow the Board to adopt rules as the Board sees fit to protect ALL of the residents living within the association and to take whatever nescessary steps that it might take to insure that all of the residents have equal rights and shares within the association.

Having said that, if we go directly to Dyana's post, I am sensing that her association monitors who is moving around within the developement. Making sure that everyone has enough parking by issuing a certain number of passes and wanting to know who is living there.

The HOA that I own in in S. Florida does this as well as all of the other developements that I was involved in. It is to help with security. Dyana's developement MAY have rental restrictions? We don't know this. They want to know who is living there and that my friends is a valid request. As has been said before, if the rules are too strict, then either comply or pack up and seek housing where there are no rules. I see absolutely no breaking of laws here. One may not like it but it is what it is---RESTRICTIONS TO FOLLOW

Janet - I totally agree with everything you are saying (except for one thing) - If they want to tell me what color of chairs I can have on the outside of my home (OK). If they want to tell me that I have to use white Christmas lights on the OUTSIDE of my home - you'v got it. But, they can not "COME INTO MY HOUSE AND TELL ME HOW TO LIVE IN IT". This is not nor has it ever been part of the deal. There are RULES, for the OUTSIDE - this I understand - but, with that being said, I have a right to my privacy (INSIDE MY OWN HOME). If they want to present RULES for RENTERS to follow - the so be it - but I am not a renter, neither are the my friends and faimly that come to stay with me. If my parents come to stay with me for three months there is no reason that anyone needs to know about this at all.

The thing that makes this all so frustrating is the fact that our board believes that they are above us and the are the rules of the kingdom. That they can take themselves and the property management company out to dinner and we pay for it. That they can change the rules to how it suites them and when ever they want. There has never been a vote for anything that goes on in our complex. We are small - 255 units and more the half are in foreclosure. The other three units where I live are empty and abandoned (so, there are plenty of parking spaces.

I have copies of everything in regards to Bylaws (these mean nothing - and there have been no updated to make it up to date). Believe me when I say that if I would have had any idea where ROGUE HOAs could take you I would not be here. But, I purchased the this townhome because the Bylaws stated that the OUTSIDE OF THE HOME is the responsiblity of the HOA (common grounds, front and back yards - etc.) But, with fearson three on the board for the past five years the value of our homes has gone from $200,000 to (are you ready) $37,000 (and they have now tacked on a $5000 assessment for NEW OWNERS, so there are no new owners). They have sold six (6) units since the added the assessment. They have shot themselves in the foot with that one.

I read the Rules before I purchased - but I have lived here for six years and the same people have been on the board for the past five years. There are a couple of new people on the board,but the they get out voted and nothing changes.

I own a 4 bdr/3 bth unit - and I can have eight people live in my home (by law). And each of the There are no rules regulating the number of guests (by law I can have 8 people in my home).

Hi Dyana:

While I personally agree with you in regards to telling me what I can and cannot do within my home. My HOA documents do not control at all inside my home. If they tried, the homeowners in my HOA would probably ban together and go on a board hunt carrying brooms, pitchforks, tar and feathers. Again, in an HOA generally majority rules and all homeowners have a choice on who they elect to the position. If they do not like a board, then ban together and replace as it is their right if they so choose.

If as you stated there are no rules regarding the number of guests you can have in your home, then I suggest you send a “certified return receipt” letter to the board regarding the issues and request that they please provide information as to where it is stated in the governing documents that they have a right to their request. They potentially will either back down or they will provide the information. Anytime you communicate regarding issues I highly recommend always sending via “certified return receipt” as this will give you proof your requests were received. It also tends to put everyone on notice that they should dot their I’s and cross their T’s because communication is being tracked.

Dyana, the one point you seem to be missing is that the rules are in place for everyone and while you may not be violating the spirit of them the BOD can't give you a free pass or ignore you just because they know you won't violate them. When they do that the people who are violating them, that the Board does enforce on, can point to you and claim "selective enforcement" or even worse if they happen to be a minority of some kind.

Besides unless the BOD has a lot of free time on their hands, chances are it is one or more of your neighbors who are complaining about your revolving door policy and the BOD is only doing their due diligence. And before you claim your neighbors like your guests and have no problem with them, while they will tell you one thing to your face to maintain harmony, they almost always tell an entirely different story to the Board. Think high school relationships and add 10, 20, 30 or 40 years; for the most part very few grow out of the politics they learn in adolescence.

Wow so this board single handed caused the entire real estate market in Florida to drop out the bottom? I had heard there were other factors but now I know the real story. It's all their fault.

Rules are good when they don't apply to me. I have guests who need to park four cars for months on end on the property and the board has no right to control who lives or visits my property. Well they just might have a say.

We had one unit with some "guests" family and friends living in a two bedroom unit with one bathroom are you ready? 22 people in total but they were guests.

Well we instituted a rule which we as a board have the right to do giving owners the ability to have 2 human beings residing in the unit for each bedroom.

And we have a rule that we passed under our documents that each unit can have a limit of 2 vehicles on the property as we have limited parking available.

The notion the board has NO say in what is done inside well that might be supportive of your position just not based in fact.

In some cases the theory this is my house and I will do as I please doesn't fly.

And just one question if your neighbor had different "guests" staying all the time and coming and going with multiple vehicles my guess this OP would have a problem with that.

We require copies of leases and don't allow the rental of rooms or as some call them "guests".

Maybe, here's a wild thought the board is struggling to keep the property afloat and the OP's behavior just serves to complicate their work and work load.

It's all the board's fault cause I said so..............

JanetB2 - Majority rules only counts in the five board members voting - and it only takes three to make something happen around here - and thus the drama continues. They do not present anything to the members for a vote - they feel that they were voted in to MAKE ALL THE DECISION. There has NEVER BEEN A MEETING OF THE MEMBERS. We get one meeting a year - and that is to vote in new board members - and the FEARSOM THREE have figured out "with the new Management Company they brought in" to get proxies to keep themselves on the board. This includes the President "whose home is in foreclosure" - and another who's house sold in foreclosure last September - and the owner of a 2nd unit who has made the foreclosed unit and AGENT. But, at the meeting in January he presented himself as an OWNER - and stated that he lived here. But, there are rules that state that anyone who has an eviction can not live here - that means that he is on a board in a commmunity where he himself can not even live???????? This sage only gets better. When they come to the table with PROXIES to vote themselves back into office every year - the annual meeting is actually a joke because they have voted themselves in without us even being there- but every year I run and every year I try to keep the community notified on what is going on around the community.

If they were to actually take any of the changes they have implemented to the community for a vote A LOT OF WHAT THEY ARE FORCING DOWN OUR THROATS would not be happening because there are a lot of us that would not have voted for what they have implemented. I am not the only unhappy camper here.

Excelent advice that I plan to take - but, something you should know. We have 36 certified letters presented to the Property Mangement Company - with no response. They have actually been taken to court and have had to pay the owner funds because they did not respond to the request.

Hi Dyana:

You have apparently just over six months until the next annual meeting to beat them at their own game. Here is what you need to do to get started:

1) Start banning together all the other homeowners who have had enough.

2) Start a binder with all your association documents with tabs dividing the various documents and also print a copy of your state statutes and put behind a tab. I know you have read them but be sure to read them many times because knowledge is power. You also want to have that knowledge and power regarding state statutes, especially for annual meeting, voting, and proxies.

Here is the link for Chapter 720 State Statutes:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0720/0720PartIContentsIndex.html&StatuteYear=2010&Title=%2D%3E2010%2D%3EChapter%20720%2D%3EPart%20I

3) Start searching around for an attorney. This will be just in case needed because right now you have the months to research and determine which individual will be the best. Go online and search for FL property rights organizations and see who they might recommend. Reason being is these individuals are very pro property rights and they know many various sections of law regarding real estate, contracts, etc. You might even consider passing around a hat and everyone who has had enough pitch in to pay and have the attorney attend the annual meeting. This is a thought to research and consider because everyone has six months to save up and think about the option. Also, many attorneys will offer a free consultation so meet with 2-3 and get a feel for who you feel would do the best job.

4) Start getting to know who at the banks is responsible for overseeing the large number of bank owned properties. Let them know of the concerns regarding the common areas not being maintained and see what they think about the fee added to properties when sold. Let them know your group will be seeking proxies for the next annual meeting and you would like to work with them to insure a new board is in place for a better future for the association. Keep in contact with whomever every couple of months, so it stays fresh in their mind and they know your group is working hard for any mutual property benefits.

5) Also, if you have units being rented or owners who live out of town send them letters about concerns and see if they will also be willing to give their proxies to your group. You can look up properties on the Tax Assessors website and it should show both the property address and mailing address if different for the owners.

6) You will need to put together a group of people willing to take on the job and run for the board positions.

This will get you started … again, knowledge is power so spend a lot of time learning. It will take everyone working together, time, and hard work; however, learn and beat them at their own game. Remember they are not the only ones who can solicit proxies.

Dyana since this group is doing so poorly, perhaps it is time for you and others that feel the same way to step up and get voted onto the Board next election. Then you can fix all of the problems.

To GlenL - the ONE POINT YOU SEEM TO BE MISSING - is that the board no longer abids by the Bylaws that have been put out for our units. They have gone to running the place on their own book of RULES - rules that they change at will. When I copy the Bylaws, and present them to the board to support my requests and/or actions - they do not respect the document, and thus I have no leg to stand on.

If the board was respectful of the documents presented for the HOA - then we would not be having this discussion at all.

You have really missed the point all together.

Hi Dyana:

Also, keep in mind you might not need an attorney but try and have finances in place just in case needed so there is not a last minute financial burden. When you call and if you make any appointments be sure to utilize any “free” consultations. Have your pertinent questions and information in order so you do not go over the usually 20-30 minute “free” time limit.

If you do not end up needing anything from an attorney then you possibly will be able to afford lobster and champaign for your party.

OK, I guess I should have started out with some background on the Saga of ABC (as we will call it).

Knowing how hard I work, and also not wanting to have the responsiblity of taking care of a yard (or yards/pool) - I was directed to a Townhouse community - I asked for a copy of the Bylaws before I made a decision to move in - they we all too happy to provide them to me. I went on vacation and looked at the unit I would be buying - and I purchased it (oh so happy with everything I saw and understood). I moved in to a lovely townhouse - there were blooming flowers, green grass and plants every where (Pictures if you would like - I took a lot of them in the beginning). Happy to own a home - and ready to move forward in the community. To get to know the neighbors and live a happy, blistful life. Then the developer moved out and took the Clubhouse/Pool/Basketball-tennis courts, etc. with him. AS, he wanted over $5 mil for it. We had less ammenitties, and the DUES went up - what the hell??? But, what are you going to do - I pay my DUES every month (always have).

So the board was born - now 2006 - the 1st board was a bit shaky - and wanted to make sure that they knew we knew they were there - Up went all the lovely signs - such as - NO PARKING - Tow away - No Soliciting etc. So, with that the people rebelled and things were loosended up. And we all prayed that that would never happen again (wrong). As the people began to settle into the strengths of the board things started to happen (2007) - OH, one more thing I fogot to mention - THE DEVELOPER has the water pipe rights to all of ABC (he owns the pipes) - so he is also our utility company (water/electric/cable). And our state gave him a license to steal from us. We have the highest water bills in the State because of this. You would think that we are using gold in the toliets and sinks. So, the next year - the board went after Mr. Field and there was focus, determination, community and everything you could hope for. New CABLE companies came up the ranks, a new power company (cost more, but we were not hooked into Mr. Field for power). But, the water - because he owns the pipes the county will not pay what he wants for the rights - so we pay through the nose just to have water come to our homes.

The next year (2008) - AND THE DUES WENT UP AGAIN (still no pool, etc.) - is when things started to go bad. The new president deicided that he did not like the Bylaws and he would flex his muscles (being new and all) and thus he shut them down - he removed some of the State Stutues and said that we are not going to abide by them any longer. And that the owners would have to step up and become more responsible for the outside of their units. That means that we no longer could put in a work order to have things fixed, we would have to hire someone to come in and take care of the issue (and pay for it). AND THE DUES WENT UP THAT YEAR TOO!!!! Next year (2009) the sprinklers went out (no one knows why as of today). But, they stopped watering the yards - so things started to die. Every year the board makes big speeches that they are working on the problems, but nothing happens, and everthing continues to die - or did I mention that everything is now dead (2010-2011) no water. SO, I HAVE BEEN WATERING MY YARD FOR YEARS - and I am one of three owners that gets up and waters their yard (one of the main reasons I purchased this lovely unit was so that I would not have to do that, but here I am). Sorry if I am a bit bitter about having to do something that my DUES should be taking care (I have never missed a payment over the past six years).

In 2008 is when the people who are on the board came in - they soon discovered that they could do what they wanted to do because they had the MAJORITY of the vote in the Board Meetings. Now for those of you who think that I just sit on my fat ass - well I am the only member of the community that ATTENDS EVERY BOARD MEETING - even when they pull tricks like changing the date and time (without notice by the way). And when they are called on it - they say that they posted it on the Window at the office two days before the meeting (most of the owners don't even live in the US, let alone close enough to see a posting on a window (but this is just the tip of the games they play). I also attend the budget meetings - but we are not allowed to speak or ask any types of question until the end of the meeting - which is rather strange, since they vote as they go along and there is not input allowed before the votes. And if they don't like what you are saying they have a police office escort you out - that came to an end when they were told that this is not the type of meeting that warrents a police man - and they can no longer use the HOA funds to provide for this type of escort as it is not a paid entry, but owners that attend and they have every right to voice their opinoions.

2009/10/11 - Still no sprinklers - but the board that we have had for the past five years has started several projects - and finished NOTHING. They have the property management company (who is not an expert on fixing anything) working around the complex on a daily basis. They make continued statements in flyers and at the board meetings that they have made great progress in the sprinkler system, but NOTING IS GETTIN WATERED BUT THE CLUBHOUSE (as long as people can see something working, then they will believe the lies that it is getting fixed - all it is is a bandaid, nothing more). They started to paint the units - but, we no longer have funds to complete the job (they were asked by the owners at a workshop July 2010, not to start the painting project until the sprinklers were fully funtional, and at the meeting they agreed to wait - and then they started the painting project in November 2010. Before they started the project at a BUDGET MEETING they were asked (by certified letter) to present the bids for member review the refused and said that they did not have to present the project to the members (a project that will end up costing over $250,000 - how can they say this) They passed out a survey and asked the owners to pick the colors they would like the units to be painted, and presented the survey as votes at the meeting - then they painted the buildings a totally different color then the owners (majority picked), but it was what the FAB Three wanted.

At the past Annual Meeting - some knew that two the owners were in forclosure - but we agreed (those that were running for the board), that we would keep things calm and allow the owners to ask questions. Several people asked each candidate what their status within the comminity was: i.e., do you live here or some place else. Do you own or are you an agent - At this time one of the people running for the board had just lost the last battle to keep his home from foreclosure (but the judge upheld a sale from the year before 9/2010) - but he lied to the people and said that he still owned and would be living here. But, the President at the time had made him an agent of his 2nd unit. Which is laughable, becuase this board member was instrumental in putting out a notice that stated that no one can live here if they have an eviction on their background check. And now - he was just evicted from his unit due to the foreclosure - and he is still serving on the board. Why would a person who has not VESTED interest in the comminity want to serve on the board (what would or could have such a hold on a person to stay in a place where he has lost it all???). Why would the "then president" of the board present agent papers to this person and then use the proxies he received or dug up is more like it to keep him on the board??? These are some of the questions that at the board meetings I ask, but never get answered.

Could I do a better JOB, you bet - I have been a single mother for 21 years now - I have never been late on a Dues payment, or a mortage payment (ever). I went into this for the long haul - and I feel that I deserve to be happy in my own home. I deserve to have privacy - and not to have three people dictate to me what they want, but because they are the majority (the other two members are left out in the cold). Sometimes they do not even invite them to their decision making meetings - things just change and we have to live with it. You tell me if you would be happy with that type of situation.

Just another spin on this all - because we are small - in comparision to a complex right next door - one of the board members started a converstion with them - and worked out a communication to work along side them with several projects. A fence between the complexes was the 1st project - we would be responsible for 1/2 of the cost - approx $10,000 - and it was agreed that and the fence went up. But, the FAB three went next door and told them that we were not going to pay for it - and they stated that the members were not happy (this is a bold faced lie - we were very happy with the fence and the cost was fantastic). But, because of that we no longer have a working agreement to piece into the road paving project (that they just finished on their complex and it looks great). And also, they have just started to paint all the units - and we were going to get in on that one too - but not Peter will not longer work with us (we are the kids on the outside). We are at the end of a road - thank God, becaue the place looks like and is considered by realtors to be a slum - if someone says the want to take a look they will drive them the opposite direction. So, we are fading fast, as the board members and the property management drain the resurves dry - what do we do?

So, some background into the past six years of my life - that went from a move from California to ABC (aka HELL) - I will continue to try to get on the board - and I will continue to be the town cryer - for there are those who appreciate the FACTS - but unti I can figure out where they are getting the proxies they are using to vote themselves in things will never change and we will be out of funds before we can get into make things turn around. It took only five short years to get where we are and it is going to take a lot longer to get out - and we will never get out if they continue to be on the board.

Hi Dyana:

Thanks for the laugh … drama queen … LOL. Every time I see certain posts the image that comes to mind is a rabid wild animal bugged eyed, snarling, and frothing at the mouth. Now the wild animal image is wearing lipstick and a tutu. FYI … if drama queen responds best practice is not respond back because like the energizer bunny … keeps on ticking ...

OP = Original Poster

My 67 year old mother has been buying properties in various states for retirement and travel and was looking at FL. So because I am the trustee for her estate and dutiful daughter, I go out and learn the HOA statutes for FL (after learning a few other states … sigh … she is wearing me out). Anyway the point is you made me feel better about the one mandate I gave her when shopping was: Do not purchase in an HOA where a developer still has any control. Unfortunately for FL when she could not find a “newer” home that was not under developer control she switched States. FL gives developers carte-blanche control and they are finding more and more methods for abuse. Blew my mind when you stated Developer set it up where he owns water pipes and acts as utility company for all other utilities.