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PjW (Virginia)
Posts: 71
Posted:
So has anyone ever had the president of an HOA tell ice cream trucks they aren't allowed to come into their communtiy? I know it seems trivial but it seems to be a pattern of him going after the kids in the communtiy.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
What was the reasoning given to not allowing them on the property yet allowing newspaper deliveries, ups, fedex and other vehicles?
PjW (Virginia)
Posts: 71
Posted:
Good point - he says its cause they are soliciting and we have private streets and the kids leave trash around
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Soliciting is knocking on doors ... individuals themselves in the community wave down the ice cream truck to stop. My opinion is one individual does not decide what happens within a community and possibly should be reminded that they do not singularly rule the roost.
PjW (Virginia)
Posts: 71
Posted:
That's the opinion of me and a lot of other people too. THere was a hugh confrontation about it tonight. Not the most shining mommnent but I'm tired of the bullying. It seems that that title of pres has gone to someone's head
JamesC (Maryland)
Posts: 282
Posted:
Disagree with all these posts. If your documents state NO SOLICITING, the President or "any" homeowner in the community has the legal right to have them sent off the property.
At both entrances to our community are signs highlighted in red, and white. rivate Property-No Soliciting:
It means just that. Soliciting is not just knocking on one's door.
You say your streets are private, so they must belong to your Association. Your Association if you are incoporated gives every shareholder the authority to take such actions.
If you are not going to stop ice cream vendors, then you cannot prevent soliticitations of any kind. If anyone is selling, or distrubiting information on resturants, pizza establishments, or a business of any kind in an effort to have you BUY something, then it is "clearly" soliciting.
A homeowner who invest their monies to buy a home governed by an HOA should expect some privacy.
Having to listen to the repeated music of an ice cream truck every day is not something one would describe as private.
Take the kids to the ice cream store, and if the majority of homeowners in your community don't have children
(I Do) I bet they would appreciate not having to listen to the annoying music, more then your kids enjoy the ice cream.
The old ruling is not to buy in a community having certain restrictions, and think ones you move in, you can change things.
If it is in the covenants, I agree with the President of the Board who is under fiducary guidelines to upheld the rules.
Probably get a lot of disagreements, but I intentionally purchased our home in an HOA community, and expect the Board of Directors, and the Management Company to enforce the rules I agreed to follow when I signed the line for my mortgage.

Thanks:

Jim
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
How about a compromise? I see the point on this being solicitation but also as a community thing. When I grew up, I lived on a busy street and never had the ice cream truck stop by. It was when I was an adult I had my first ice cream truck experience. We have one truck now that visits in our area but doesn't have any kind of routine.

It was the lack of routine and communication with the Ice Cream truck owner that effected the Ice Cream truck to come into our neighborhood/HOA. Plus the streets were often too narrow to support the width of the truck. Which is a concern on both sides. The truck would come in occassionally but could be heard for miles. The poor kid's could hear it next door but could never get to it. So our HOA decision on the ice cream truck was more based on their ability to get into the complex and the fairness of skipping us by.

A similar situation could be occurring in your HOA. I would see if you can talk to the owner of the Ice cream truck to find out if they make enough business to even come into your neighborhood. Could you set up a routine/time and 1 place to sell from? Ask the BOD/Pres if they would be willing to allow the Ice Cream truck to park near the entrance at 3PM . They wouldn't have to drive around and the residents would know where to go to.

Yes, the Ice Cream truck can be annoying to some people. However, it's part of the childhood experience. Why not find a way to incorporate it without banning it altogether?

Former HOA President
PjW (Virginia)
Posts: 71
Posted:
@Jim - it is not in our documents - just someone years ago posted a sign that said no soliciting just like recently they posted a sign that says no skateboarding - NONE of that is in our docs and can't be backed up.
PjW (Virginia)
Posts: 71
Posted:
The trucks have been coming into out community for atleast as long as I've lived in my home and that's at least 12 years now. The streets are passable to traffic, everyone knows to watch for the kids when the trucks around. This is only an issue for this one guy who happens to be the pres who didn't bother to bring the issue to a board meeting and just decided to take matters into his own hands
JamesC (Maryland)
Posts: 282
Posted:
PJW:

Sorry:

I was responding from my view of living in a private community on private property where the roads are owned, and controlled by the Association. We do not have streets, and are not a neighborhood where roads are controlled by the county or state.
We pay for our own maintenance such as snow removal, and repairs, and have assigned parking. Our guidelines are specific on addressing solicitations, so any homeowner is authorized to confront outsiders.
A group of church people who started into the community were told they were on private property, and replied they had seen the "No Soliciting" signs at the entrances, but felt because there were no signs saying "No Trespassing"
it would be ok??????.
Since it is not spelled out in your CC&R's, I can't see how the President can independently enforce a rule that is not there. The President may have the title, but he is one person on the board of directors, but he/she is not the entire board.
I doubt his monthly assesement fees are any more then the other homeowners in your community, so he has no more authority then anyone else outside a board meeting. How many board members do you have?.
The position of president of the board of directors is to maintain order during the meetings. I agree he should not be enforcing rules/regulations independent of what the other board members have addressed, and voted on.

Jim

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Hi PjW:

To be fair the “new” president may not have realized that the no soliciting was not in the governing documents due to the sign you mentioned above.

In most cities soliciting is defined as individuals who themselves either by verbal or written communication approaches others for either monetary donations or sale of goods. However, the verbal is when they themselves approach individuals on the street, physically knocking on doors, or by telephone. The potential issue is ice cream trucks, schwan trucks, church individuals, etc. do not in many cities in essence legally fall under soliciting.

You generally will not have individuals driving ice cream trucks leaning out the window hollering at people asking if they want to buy ice cream … why because individuals must approach them first, so they do not fall under soliciting guidelines. This is also why if they do stop when someone waves them down their first words are generally something to the effect of “May I help you?” and not “Do you want to buy ice cream?”

I had a neighbor one time upset because she thought the Schwan truck would have asked if she needed anything when he drove by just because she was standing outside and he should have wanted a sale. I had to explain to her that he legally could not stop unless she physically motioned for him to approach because of the solicitation laws. This is also potentially why the church individuals James mentioned did not stop when they did not see a no trespassing. If they were not asking for monetary donations they knew possibly under their city guidelines they are not considered soliciting.

The point is when an HOA with private roads posts “no soliciting”, they need to be sure and know what their local city ordinance states. This will be what potential solicitors will know and abide as the law, not necessarily what is in an HOA’s documents which they will not be aware of and know what they state.
PjW (Virginia)
Posts: 71
Posted:
Thank you guys for giving me both sides of the issue. As always I knew this was the best place to pose this question to get the best answers
JamesC (Maryland)
Posts: 282
Posted:
JanetB2:

With all due respect you keep directing your response to homes in cities. Most HOA's are probably not located in a city, and would more likely be located in rural areas.
That aside, your definition of soliciting is somewhat condradictary when you say::: soliciting is defined as individuals who themselves either by verbal or written communication approches others for either monetary donations or sale of goods, etc::::. You go on to say ice cream trucks, schawn trucks, church individuals, etc. do not in many cities in essence fall ubder soliciting?????????? I am confused. Solicitation means to solicit orders or trade, sale too, etc.
Selling ice cream off a truck, selling schwan products off a truck, church individuals going through a private community at dinner time in an effort to convert folks are all pretty much soliciting.

You go on to say::::You generally will not have individuals driving ice cream trucks leaning out the window hollering at people asking if they want to buy ice cream. """YOU REALLY DON"T NEED A DRIVER LEANING OUT THE WINDOW HOLLERING TO BUY ICE CREAM WHEN YOU CAN HEAR THE SAME ANNOYING MUSIC A MILE AWAY."""

You may possibly live in a city, but we have been told HOA Guidelines sometimes supercede local ordinances, and in affect some HOA's have their own sort of government regulations. When you purchase your home, you have agreed to follow the rules/regulations which are clearly defined in the Covenants of the HOA. Most Federal, State laws have already been considered when the communities have been established.

Sorry if my opinion comes off as strong, but I remain confused about your definition of soliciting.

Jim

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

James,

Some times when we generalize, we kind of get in trouble and this teeny statement from you is one of them--" we have been told HOA Guidelines sometimes supercede local ordinances," No one, HOA or otherwise, may allow actions that are not allowed by the city or county that the HOA is established in. The HOA can strengthen those laws and codes but may not ignore them---ever!

An example might be a County or City has a law against fireworks of any kind. That means that there can be no fireworks in the HOA without a special permit by the county. How about fences. The county says that all pool fences must be 4 foot. The Hoa cannot say only 3.5 feet tall. You can say 4.5 feet but nothing lower than the county's 4 foot.
requirement.

How about additions to a home. The County says that all properties have a 20 foot setback. The HOA cannot allow a lesser setback unless a variance is written. The point is that the HOA does have it's own little mini government but the Heirarchy of law belongs to the City, then higher, the County and so on. Jes a little correction.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:

The point is when an HOA with private roads posts “no soliciting”, they need to be sure and know what their local city ordinance states. This will be what potential solicitors will know and abide as the law, not necessarily what is in an HOA’s documents which they will not be aware of and know what they state.

Hi James:

Sorry I should have potentially stated to check with your local City, County, and State ordinances because these are all the laws solicitors must follow.

Thank you!
JamesC (Maryland)
Posts: 282
Posted:
DonnaS:

By not responding, it would appear I agree with you, but to put this to rest I have to reply.

You say:
No one, HOA or otherwise, may allow actions that are not allowed by the city or county that the HOA is established in.

Afraid that is not correct. For example, if an HOA bans the ownership of pit bulls in their community, and the city, county, state, or even federal have no such rules, it does not mean the Association cannot set these rules.
The Federal Government now says HOA's must allow the flying of the flag, however the HOA can still tell the homeowner where he can place the flag for display.

Associations provide services, regulate activities, levy assessments, and may, as delegated by the states legislature, impose fines. Unlike a municipal government, they are not subject to the constitutional constraints that public government must abide by.[10] Some of the tasks which HOAs carry out would otherwise be required to be performed by local governments. A homeowners' association can enforce its actions through the threat and levying of fines, and private legal action under civil law.

Homeowner associations can compel homeowners to pay a share of common expenses, usually per-unit or based on square footage. These expenses generally arise from common property, which varies dramatically depending on the type of association. Some associations are, not quite literally, towns, complete with private roads, street lights, services, utilities, amenities, commonly owned buildings, pools, and even schools. Many condominium associations consider the roofs and exteriors of the structures as the responsibility of the association. Other associations have no common property, but may charge for assumed services or other matters. Assessments paid to homeowner associations in the United States amount to billions of dollars a year, but are not classed as property taxes.[11]

Some scholars and the AARP charge that in a variety of ways HOAs suppress the rights of their residents.[17] Due to their nature as a non-governmental entity, HOA boards of directors are not bound by constitutional restrictions on governments, although they are essentially a de-facto level of government.[18]

Our Private Community has asked our county police if they could just ride through our community at different times just to make an apperance. They could not, because they say were are a private community on private property
and can only enter on 911 calls.

These are just examples I use to say HOA's are a mini self government.

Sorry for the long read, so I won't respond any further.

Thanks:

Jim

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