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CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
Our HOA has been taken over by members of the community who won't let anyone on the board but their friends.
The president has used our money for his landscaping (he has commons around his townhouse),
has gotten us involved in a lawsuit against our township and school district, used our money for
the vice-presidents' legal issue and the list goes on. When there is a vacancy they vote their
friends on. And at our annual meeting in March he walked out because he knew he would lose. The
attorney for the HOA has been agreeing with him so now they moved our annual meeting until June even
though it says in our by-laws it was suppose to be in March. Because he didn't do everything according
to by-laws the attorney said we have to start over! He doesn't follow our by-laws at all. We
did seek an attorney but he feels because we only have about 15 people that are upset in a
development of over 500 it wouldn't be good. Help!!
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
welcome to a democracy (our founding father's worst nightmare)

as Adams said: here is your republic, i pray you can keep it
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Cheryl - your president is ONE person!!

Motions and a vote of the board would be needed to do all the things you listed.

CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
I know but he has 5 of his friends on so out of 9 members they have 6 or always
vote in his favor and when there is a vacancy they vote against anyone they
don't want on the board! They don't make motions for things they want to do,
they just do them. I saw an attorney and he is trying to help us but we are paying
for our attorney and they are using our homeowners attorney!
CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
I know but he has 5 of his friends on so out of 9 members they have 6 or always
vote in his favor and when there is a vacancy they vote against anyone they
don't want on the board! They don't make motions for things they want to do,
they just do them. I saw an attorney and he is trying to help us but we are paying
for our attorney and they are using our homeowners attorney!
CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
Well that didn't help me any! To be truthful, I have lived here 18 years and nothing
like this has ever happened!
JenniferA2 (California)
Posts: 27
Posted:
If you can get a majority of the homeowners together, maybe you could vote to remove the board members.

Jenn
CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
Thanks Jenn,

We did think of that because our bylaws do state we need a majority to remove a member
from the board however a lot of people don't want to sign because they don't want the member
to see that they signed-even though they want to. (they are afraid because the one women
who is on the board that is a cousin of the president is a horrible person. She would harass
these people and because she as children in school these people are afraid. Personally I stand
up to her and so do some of the other members but a lot of the residents won't.) I guess these people will be crying when we lose our lawsuit and our dues are raised and they have spent all of our money!
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
The VOTE to remove a board member would be by secret ballot, so no one would see who voted what.

The petition to hold a special meeting, for the purpose of holding a recall vote WOULD show the names of people signing the petition, but this is just to hold that specific meeting.

CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
Our bylaws state that to remove a board member it would be by the majority of the community. I
spoke to an attorney and he said the board members would have the right to see who
signed the petition.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Cheryl,

The typical process for recalling a board member is as follows (but verify with your governing documents):

1. Petition to call a special meeting for the purpose of recalling a member/s of the board and hold election to replace recalled member/s is circulated for signatures.

2. Petition is turned over to the Board

3. Board verifies the signatures (making sure only members signed it) and verifies that the number of signatures equal the number required to call a meeting.

4. Meeting place and date are identified.

5. Notice of meeting is sent to the membership (complying with any notice requirements in your governing documents).

6. Meeting Held:

a) quorum requirement verified
b) Proof of notice given
c) Discussion of recall
d) Ballots provided for recall
e) Polls closed,Ballots collected and counted, results announced.

7. IF recall was successful then either:

a) At same meeting:
Nominees identified, ballots provided, polls closed, ballots collected, ballots counted, results announced.

b) Another meeting is held to elect replacements

c) Remaining Board members appoint individuals to fill the vacancies.

Hope this helps,

Tim
CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
Ok here we go! Our monthly meeting is scheduled for tomorrow evening. It says in our by-laws as
long as we have a quorum we can have the meeting. The president and vice president can't make it
so they canceled the meeting until June 14! Why you ask, because the presidents term was up in March
and he knows he isn't going to win so he is trying to postpone so we wouldn't have our nominations
until June and the new members wouldn't start until July. His term was up in March and he is still on!
We have contacted an attorney but in the meantime anyone have any suggestions????? This guy is so
slimy it is sickening!
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Hi Cheryl:

How many board members in your HOA?
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Sorry ... also are you a Planned Community or Condominium?
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Hi Cheryl:

Missed it before where you did state above there are 9 members on the board. This appears to potentially be a very last minute cancellation. How many individuals do you think will still show up for the meeting that was supposedly cancelled?

CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
We are going to have the meeting. There is a slight possibility that 5 members will show
up, 3 are coming for sure. The president had the atty send out a letter that the presidents
cousin hand delivered that said they were canceling. It isn't up to the president or vp to cancel!
It is our regular monthly meeting! I think the pres and VP called the other 2 members that might
come and told them not to come. We live in a homes association, not condo association.

thanks!
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Hi Cheryl:

Good … you might check with your attorney and see whether or not he feels it might be good for him to attend. I would think the meeting was originally set up following the procedures in your documents and also per the following statute. As long as it met the qualifications as you stated it is the members meeting, so would not matter if only one or two officers could be present or not. As long as only the items on the agenda are taken care of during the “properly” noticed meeting, then it might work well. Be sure to take note of the last sentence in the meeting statute below … it must take place where, when, etc. as stated in the information sent to everyone and only items noted on agenda are to be addressed.

5308. Meetings

The bylaws shall require that meetings of the association be held at least once each year and shall provide for special meetings. The bylaws shall specify which of the association's officers, not less than ten nor more than 60 days in advance of any meeting, shall cause notice to be hand delivered or sent prepaid by United States mail to the mailing address of each unit or to any other mailing address designated in writing by the unit owner. The notice of any meeting must state the time and place of the meeting and the items on the agenda, including the general nature of any proposed amendment to the declaration or bylaws; any budget or assessment changes; and, where the declaration or bylaws require approval of unit owners, any proposal to remove a director or officer.

Also, per your documents and the following statute … QUORUM must be met. That is why I asked how many people will be attending via in person or by proxy. Therefore, if necessary run around before the meeting and try to insure you have enough proxies before the beginning of the meeting. If quorum is not met, then the meeting cannot take place or would not be legal.

5309. Quorums

(a) Association.-- Unless the bylaws provide otherwise, a quorum is present throughout any meeting of the association if persons entitled to cast 20% of the votes which may be cast for election of the executive board are present in person or by proxy at the beginning of the meeting. The bylaws may require a larger percentage or a smaller percentage not less than 10%.

The following is also a statute to keep in mind if needed.

5303. Executive board members and officers
(f) Removal of members.--Notwithstanding any provision of the declaration or bylaws to the contrary, the unit owners, by a two-thirds vote of all persons present and entitled to vote at any meeting of the unit owners at which a quorum is present, may remove any member of the executive board with or without cause, other than a member appointed by the declarant.

I am not an attorney, but you might run this past your attorney and see what he thinks. Important item will be getting enough bodies or proxies to obtain quorum.

CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
I wanted to update all of you. We had our meeting Tuesday....but the Vice President canceled the meeting because the president was in the hospital and the vice president couldn't make it. Emails were sent and they contacted the attorney because we would have had a quorum, they tried to say because the pres and vp couldn't be there was the reason they were canceling. They talked two of the members into not showing up so we didn't have a quorum. As it turns out the president passed away Tuesday evening. We were shocked but we have to move on. We are trying to
have an emergency meeting to fill the vacancies and finish the annual meeting that was suppose to have taken place in March and didn't. I am hoping that things work out now. I will let you know. Thanks for all your help so far!!!
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Hi Cheryl:

I understand that some may have had issues with the President; however, it is still a loss for the community. I just want you and your community to know that I am sorry for your loss and wish everyone the best in all your endeavors.

CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
I have a question about what a quorum is. We have a 9 member board. Does this mean
there has to be at least 5 members at a meeting to make a quorum. What if we only have
4 members on the board out of 9 positions?
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Hi Cheryl:

Check your association bylaws to see if a larger percentage is required. Otherwise the state statutes is below:

5309. Quorums

(b) Executive board.--Unless the bylaws specify a larger percentage, a quorum is deemed present throughout any meeting of the executive board if persons entitled to cast 50% of the votes on the board are present at the beginning of the meeting.

CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
Thank you but what exactly does that mean? Our by-laws state that our board of directors consists of 9 board members. The next page is quourum, majority of the members of the board of directors. It was explained to me that since we have a board of 9 that at least 5 have to show up for a meeting to be considered a quorum.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
It must be 50% minimum by the state statute. Therefore, if you have 9 then 5 would be required, unless your bylaws state a larger percentage required. If as you noted your bylaws only state majority, then the 50% would apply as being majority.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Cheryl,

Based on what you posted, you would need 5 board members in order to have a quorum. A quorum is needed in order for the Board to make any decisions.

Please note that many Associations allow officers to make some decision at that level vs. needing board approval.

Tim
CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
Would you believe that 4 members of the association have us involved in a lawsuit! There were only 4 members on a 9 member board. Everyone had quit because of a couple of the people who were on the board. So they took it upon themselves to sue our township and school district because of the pond that we have. The are blaming them for some issues we are having (they aren't at fault!) I requested DEP information from the attorney our HOA is using over 6 weeks ago and still don't have it.

I found an attorney because they are keeping me off the board. Last December my bank did not forward my HOA payments for 3 months. Since they are only $43 I really didn't notice. When I did find
out I called the secretary of the association and told her what happened. I asked her if I owed any late fees,she
told me $5.00. I paid everything in full (and also let my bank know what happened.) I was voted on the board in
August, 7 months later. The next month they said I couldn't be on the board because the secretary messed up and didn't charge me $10 in late fees. When I got my statement it showed a $0 balance. They said I was not current with
my assessments! How can I pay what I don't owe?? So I am still fighting for my seat. Can you believe it? I told the Vice president that if they didn't seat me I would take them to court and since they have not followed the by-laws they will have to get their own attorney. I am serious, I don't know how I can lose! I also know the PA law says you can't go back after 6 months and put a finance charge or fee on someones statement.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CherylC1 on 05/23/2011 5:15 PM
Would you believe that 4 members of the association have us involved in a lawsuit! There were only 4 members on a 9 member board. Everyone had quit because of a couple of the people who were on the board. So they took it upon themselves to sue our township and school district because of the pond that we have.

Cheryl,

If there were vacancies on the Board, the quorum would have been reduced. However, if your bylaws specify a minimum number of directors required, then the quorum can not fall below the minimum required. Therefore:

Language says "the Board shall consist of not more than 9 nor less than 5 Directors":

9 seats available

9 filled - 5 = quorum
8 filled - 5 = quorum
7 filled - 4 = quorum
6 filled - 4 = quorum
5 filled - 3 = quorum
4 filled - 3 = quorum
3 filled - 3 = quorum
2 filled - 3 = quorum
1 filled - 3 = quorum

Once a quorum of the Board can not be met, the only decisions that should happen would be the appointment of members to fill vacancies so a quorum can be achieved.

Tim
CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
The language is "Board of Directors shall consist of nine members." It also says that a vacancy is
to be filled at the next regular meeting. Then it says quorum "Majority of the board of directors."
So if it explains that our board is nine members and the vacancies have to be filled wouldn't
the quorum be not less than 5? I would think this would protect our community. What if you get 2 or 3
people who won't let people on the board and say they have a quorum????
RobW (California)
Posts: 279
Posted:
Cheryl,

Take my advice: Step back from all of this, take 10 deep breaths, go to the nearest beautiful spot and just sit for a few hours to clear your mind.

You are up against a chronic problem in collective communities: entrenchment of the board. To be fair, it's never just the board members' doing when this happens - it is a combination of the democratic process and member apathy that leads to this. And when you have a chronic entrenchment problem, you are not going to "fix" it by frantically firing away solo, and you aren't going to win without a long-term strategy. If you are hoping someone here can provide you with a magic bullet, it's not going to happen.

After you go and settle your mind at the nearest park, come back and reread this.

There are two types of meetings, and this entire thread has confused them. You must separate them in order to form a useful strategy.

Meeting Type 1: Board meeting. The rules for these vary from state to state, but a board meeting is just what its name implies: a meeting of the members of the board of directors. Your bylaws will define the number of directors the comprise the board, and the number of officers who serve on the board. Your bylaws will also state the number of directors that must be in attendance at a board meeting (quorum) in order to convene the meeting. It's usually one more than half, so if you have 9 directors, it would mean 5 members would make a quorum, but read your bylaws to make sure. Typically, board meetings are held periodically, commonly they are monthly or quarterly. No matter what state you live in, if a quorum of the directors is not in attendance, THERE CAN BE NO MEETING, AND NO BUSINESS CAN BE DONE, NO DECISIONS MADE, NO VOTES TAKEN!

Do you understand what I'm saying? If there is not a quorum of directors (as defined by your bylaws or state statute, if your bylaws are silent on this) in attendance at a board meeting, NOTHING THE BOARD MEMBERS DECIDE AT THE MEETING IS LEGAL, BINDING OR VALID! They may sit at a table and go through the motions of conducting a meeting, and may think they are conducting official business, but they aren't, and if you and the rest of the homeowners let them get away with it, then you are all willingly giving up the right to govern yourselves.

Meeting Type 2: Meeting of the members. Most Associations have an annual membership meeting, at which new directors are elected, and ballot items that require a vote of the membership are decided. A MEETING OF THE MEMBERS IS NOT A BOARD MEETING! The president of the association usually presides over the meeting, but it's just a formality. A quorum of board members is not required for the annual meeting, because it is a meeting of all of the members of the Association - not a meeting of the board. In order to convene a membership meeting, there must be a quorum of members of the Association present, either in person, via proxy, or even via speaker phone or Internet technology such as Skype (your bylaws and state statutes describe what is permissible.)

A quorum of members of the Association is defined in your bylaws, but it could be as low as 20%, or as high as 60 or 75%, depending on your bylaws and your state statutes. Let's say you have 500 units in your Association, and typically one "member" vote per unit, and a quorum is defined by your bylaws as 250. That means 250 people have to be present at your membership meeting, either by mail-in ballot, proxy, in person, teleconference, Internet, etc. - whatever your bylaws and state statute require or allow. What it would boil down to in your case, assuming the above to be the case, is that 250 valid votes would be required to establish a quorum for your membership meeting, and a majority of those votes would be required in order for a director to be elected, or a ballot item to pass. Without a quorum of the membership, NO ELECTION CAN TAKE PLACE, AND NO BALLOT ITEMS CAN PASS! No matter what anybody there might say, without a quorum, no meeting can convene, and without convening the meeting, no business of the membership can be conducted. If no quorum is present, most bylaws provide for a second meeting to be scheduled, usually 10 - 30 days in the future, with a lower number of members constituting a quorum.

I hope you understand this better now. Become an expert on your governing documents and your state statutes, and develop a strategy to break the entrenchment. You can petition the board to hold a special meeting of the membership for the purpose of removing one or more board members, but if you don't want your names to be known by all, wait until the next election and vote the bums out. Drop short, anonymous, well-written flyers in front of every door in the dead of night if you must, but that's often what it takes to regain control of your community. Fair government in a democracy must be won - it is not a God-given right. You must take it, or lose it.

Rob

RobW (California)
Posts: 279
Posted:
Cheryl,

Take my advice: Step back from all of this, take 10 deep breaths, go to the nearest beautiful spot and just sit for a few hours to clear your mind.

You are up against a chronic problem in collective communities: entrenchment of the board. To be fair, it's never just the board members' doing when this happens - it is a combination of the democratic process and member apathy that leads to this. And when you have a chronic entrenchment problem, you are not going to "fix" it by frantically firing away solo, and you aren't going to win without a long-term strategy. If you are hoping someone here can provide you with a magic bullet, it's not going to happen.

After you go and settle your mind at the nearest park, come back and reread this.

There are two types of meetings, and this entire thread has confused them. You must separate them in order to form a useful strategy.

Meeting Type 1: Board meeting. The rules for these vary from state to state, but a board meeting is just what its name implies: a meeting of the members of the board of directors. Your bylaws will define the number of directors the comprise the board, and the number of officers who serve on the board. Your bylaws will also state the number of directors that must be in attendance at a board meeting (quorum) in order to convene the meeting. It's usually one more than half, so if you have 9 directors, it would mean 5 members would make a quorum, but read your bylaws to make sure. Typically, board meetings are held periodically, commonly they are monthly or quarterly. No matter what state you live in, if a quorum of the directors is not in attendance, THERE CAN BE NO MEETING, AND NO BUSINESS CAN BE DONE, NO DECISIONS MADE, NO VOTES TAKEN!

Do you understand what I'm saying? If there is not a quorum of directors (as defined by your bylaws or state statute, if your bylaws are silent on this) in attendance at a board meeting, NOTHING THE BOARD MEMBERS DECIDE AT THE MEETING IS LEGAL, BINDING OR VALID! They may sit at a table and go through the motions of conducting a meeting, and may think they are conducting official business, but they aren't, and if you and the rest of the homeowners let them get away with it, then you are all willingly giving up the right to govern yourselves.

Meeting Type 2: Meeting of the members. Most Associations have an annual membership meeting, at which new directors are elected, and ballot items that require a vote of the membership are decided. A MEETING OF THE MEMBERS IS NOT A BOARD MEETING! The president of the association usually presides over the meeting, but it's just a formality. A quorum of board members is not required for the annual meeting, because it is a meeting of all of the members of the Association - not a meeting of the board. In order to convene a membership meeting, there must be a quorum of members of the Association present, either in person, via proxy, or even via speaker phone or Internet technology such as Skype (your bylaws and state statutes describe what is permissible.)

A quorum of members of the Association is defined in your bylaws, but it could be as low as 20%, or as high as 60 or 75%, depending on your bylaws and your state statutes. Let's say you have 500 units in your Association, and typically one "member" vote per unit, and a quorum is defined by your bylaws as 250. That means 250 people have to be present at your membership meeting, either by mail-in ballot, proxy, in person, teleconference, Internet, etc. - whatever your bylaws and state statute require or allow. What it would boil down to in your case, assuming the above to be the case, is that 250 valid votes would be required to establish a quorum for your membership meeting, and a majority of those votes would be required in order for a director to be elected, or a ballot item to pass. Without a quorum of the membership, NO ELECTION CAN TAKE PLACE, AND NO BALLOT ITEMS CAN PASS! No matter what anybody there might say, without a quorum, no meeting can convene, and without convening the meeting, no business of the membership can be conducted. If no quorum is present, most bylaws provide for a second meeting to be scheduled, usually 10 - 30 days in the future, with a lower number of members constituting a quorum.

I hope you understand this better now. Become an expert on your governing documents and your state statutes, and develop a strategy to break the entrenchment. You can petition the board to hold a special meeting of the membership for the purpose of removing one or more board members, but if you don't want your names to be known by all, wait until the next election and vote the bums out. Drop short, anonymous, well-written flyers in front of every door in the dead of night if you must, but that's often what it takes to regain control of your community. Fair government in a democracy must be won - it is not a God-given right. You must take it, or lose it.

Rob

CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
Thank you Rob. I have taken a step back and every time I do they find a way to do something dirty.
There is about 12 of us that have been trying since August 2010. When the president walked out at our
annual meeting and wouldn't count the votes that was a good one!

Thanks for all your info but to clarify. We have a 9 member board. What happens if people quit and there are only 4 members. Is a quorum 3 or is it always 5 or more? If it is 3 than that sure doesn't protect our community.
You could get someone in that stalls putting people in the vacancy or vote no to put them on. I would think
the quorum would be a protection so we would have to have at least 5 at all times. (But then maybe I am living in a dream world!!)

Cheryl
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CherylC1 on 05/24/2011 3:26 AM

The language is:

"Board of Directors shall consist of nine members."

It also says that a vacancy is to be filled at the next regular meeting.

Then it says quorum "Majority of the board of directors."


Hi Cheryl:

Lets see if we can clarify. If I go by your postings above (bold emphasis added) and which you said is in your governing documents, then potentially the scenario should be:

1. Board Meeting starts with 8 board of directors (less than 9 due to one left).

2. Board meeting starts with 8 directors (quorum needed = 5) because governing documents state “majority”, therefore must be more than half.

3. First item is board fills vacancy for unexpired portion of term for open director position. This is done with majority agreement of the 8 “current” board members (majority = 5).

4. At that time association business can be conducted according to governing documents which state Board of Directors SHALL consist of nine members. The term shall in the legal world in essence means “must”.

5. The board is then in essence legal to properly conduct association business as needed.

As Rob pointed out above, until they are back up to 9 members then no business or decisions can be made except for appointing individuals to fill terms to become compliant. Once filled then proceed forward. Even if you substitute 5 instead of 8 in the example above the same steps would in essence need to take place. If homeowners do not like whom the board puts in the position they can always potentially recall board members following proper procedures.
AnnJ1 (Florida)
Posts: 122
Posted:
Hi Cheryl,

I'm so sorry you are having this problem regarding your BOD quorum.

If Roberts' Rules of Order are your association's parliamentary authority, Roberts has a whole chapter dedicated to quorum issues.... chapter XI.

Even though your bylaws state your board shall consist of nine members, if you only have four members of the potential capacity; you would then have a four member board. Look above at Tim's post... he is quite accurate as to determining a majority based on the "filled" positions. Your association's job is to fill the board vacancies ASAP

I went to the RRO website and the parliamentary authority there said "Typically (though exceptions are possible) the quorum is based on the number of actual members, not the number of potential members"

If you would like to see the thread which is similar to your problem, it's...
http://robertsrules.forumflash.com/index.php?/topic/11628-quorum-question/

HTH,
Ann

CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
I found out that a few members of the board (acting president at the moment) and 3 of his friends have been in touch with the attorney for the board and he is advising them to put
me on the board in the seat that is really mine. They won't listen to him and aren't following the by-laws. My attorney now is going to sue them individually. Just wondering if anyone knows the answer to this question. Since they haven't followed the by-laws and we are suing them individually would the attorney for the association be able to represent them or would they have to get their own attorney? And since they aren't taking the advice of their council wouldn't that relinquish their options? The reason they are fighting is because they don't want to lose the majority vote that they have had. Since they have had the majority they can pretty much do what they want.

Thanks!!
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Sorry, you can't sue them as individuals. Don't waste your money on that fight. It's why BOD and the HOA has insurance. It protects the BOD from being sued as individuals. It's a perk so to speak as people wouldn't want that position if they knew their personal assets could be in danger if they made an unfavorable decision as a board member.

The HOA attorney doesn't represent just the board members. The attorney represents the HOA as a whole. It is required that IF a HOA is taken to court it should be represented by an attorney. So any legal actions you take the HOA will have to appear in court on the HOA's behalf. Which leads me yet again to say :Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors...

It sounds like what your HOA should be doing is ammending the Convenants and restrictions to better fill the current needs/wants of the homeowners. This should include reducing the number of required people on the board. We had to do that because of not enough participation. Couldn't get 9 people to attend a meeting never the less be board members...

Everyone fights in a HOA...It's just which battles you want to take on...I found sometimes walking away can sometimes be the best solution. Given enough rope, one tends to hang themselves with it or atleast tie a few knots...

Former HOA President
CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
Thanks, so even if by-laws are not followed that doesn't make a difference?
The problem here is if they aren't stopped now they are going to bankrupt our
association or the dues will go up tremendously. Our by-laws do need revamped,
they are from 1994. There has to be some consequence for board members who
pay attorneys to keep people off and not follow by-laws at all. How about using
our money to pay the HOA attorney to show up at the magistrate when it was concerning
his private property? ($1400 later.) I could go on and on!

Cheryl
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Your confusing by-laws with Convenants. It is really your Convenants and Restrictions that govern your HOA NOT your by-laws. By-laws can be changed and modified by a simple vote/meeting notes. Convenants and Restrictions actually run with your property and are the contractual part. It's like the CC&R's are the law of the land and the By-laws are the everyday rules.

The rules can all be changed and how to do it is clearly in your documentation. Read it and it will be your guide to change any issue. What people don't get the power to change their HOA is within itself NOT court rooms, lawyers, or police officers. Go to your local courthouse RECORDS department and get a copy of what is on record there. It's considered PUBLIC information...

It isn't cheap, easy, or without the need of a lawyer to change/modify your documentation. It takes a great amount of co-operation and understanding. Which is nearly impossible to get amongst a wide range of homeowners. The key is EDUCATION and an understanding of what an HOA is about. You get that and everything else will come together...

Most HOA's don't have any form of punishment or fine system for violations. It has to be documented and agreed upon BEFORE any kind of fine process can occur. However, in many states (not all) fines are pretty useless to enforce.As they can't be used as the basis of a lien/foreclosure. So if there's no real legal way to enforce a fine, then why have it? It only works on those who don't know better and then once they figure it out then all heck breaks loose...

So if you want punishment vote for it. You want better rules...change them....You want to stop complaining and be part of the solution? Then EDUCATE yourself and become involved in your HOA...


Former HOA President
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Hi Cheryl:

Actually your attorney is correct in that he can possibly sue the board as individuals if they have not performed in good faith, exercised willful violation of governing documents, gross negligence, etc. There is insurance that HOA’s carry and which covers board members, but generally that insurance will only cover them if they perform their duties in good faith. If they violate certain tort laws then possibly the insurance will not cover.

With regards to your question … potentially it should work in that if the HOA insurance is willing to cover because they exercised their duties in good faith, then yes the HOA attorney should represent them. If however it is determined that they did not exercise their duties in good faith and violated certain tort laws in which the insurance does not cover, then potentially they should be responsible for their own attorney. If they are not following their own HOA attorney’s advice, then possibly they will learn the hard way if anything is filed and the HOA attorney maybe informs them he cannot represent and to get their own legal counsel.

Unfortunately once in a while you will have individuals who are so stubborn and unwilling to admit they are wrong or made a mistake. Also, they may not understand it is not just HOA laws which govern:

5108. Supplemental general principles of law applicable

The principles of law and equity, including the law of corporations and unincorporated associations, the law of real property and the law relative to capacity to contract, principal and agent, eminent domain, estoppel, fraud, misrepresentation, duress, coercion, mistake, receivership, substantial performance, or other validating or invalidating cause supplement the provisions of this subpart, except to the extent inconsistent with this subpart.

Maybe the HOA attorney will push a little harder to have his advice followed.
CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
Thank you so much! I thought my attorney knew what he is talking about!
They have done so many things that have been wrong so I sure hope that we can stop
them before it is too late! I appreciate your advice so much!
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Hi Cheryl:

If they are not following the governing documents as you stated previously your attorney is potentially going after them for possible tort violations. I am not an attorney but generally under tort violations each side is responsible for their own attorney fees, unless either frivolous or gross negligence is proven. What is dumb is if they possibly are not following the documents against the HOA attorney advice, then it also can maybe incur punitive damages under some tort statutes.

Our homeowners are currently in a lawsuit with developers in my subdivision for mostly tort violations (only one of the ten counts filed falls under HOA statutes). Because both the prior and new developer in essence could not file motions to dismiss then the lawsuit potentially would not be found "frivolous". Hopefully when we prove gross negligence in court we will get our attorney fees, even if they try to settle before court we want attorney fees. Because they could not file motions to dismiss they are now are wanting meetings ... after all the previous stress I might actually now get to have some fun.

MilesT (Texas)
Posts: 34
Posted:
Hi Cheryl - It looks like you have a lot going on there. Here is a simple way to determine a quorum: If your active board consists of an even number, for what ever reason, you divide in half and add 1. So, if you have four people actively on the board, divide by 2 and add one, 3 is your quorum. The purpose is not to have a vote split, 2 for and 2 against, to prevent deadlock.

Most boards consist of odd numbers, in your case nine, preventing a deadlock. If you have open seats you have to use the number that are actually on the board. In your case 4. So, three is your quorum today. Five would be your quorum all nine for your board positions were actively filled.

Side note: We used to have cliques on our board. They were all on one courtyard. We created a policy, not a bylaw, to spread out the living locations of the board members. In other words, he board needed to reflect all areas of the property - we have 200 condos on 14 acres. It worked. This prevented the neighbors from grouping together for social and personal agendas and is turning our property into a real business. Not there yet, but it is heading in that direction.

Good luck and don't give up!

Miles
CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
Hi!

Wow, I hope you do have some fun! Isn't it amazing what can happen?
It has to be a good feeling to see that things are moving in your favor!

I never dreamed after being in a HOA for 18 years that any of this can
happen. One of the residents suggested we get in touch with the insurance
company and let them know they have not followed the bylaws and there is
negligence. And also let them know we are going to sue them. Maybe a possibility.

I think one of the things they have done is get us involved in this lawsuit when they
only had 4 people on the board. That is not a quorum and they should not have been
doing anything but normal business until they had a quorum. There are so many other
things also. It is amazing!

Thanks for all your help!! I appreciate it!
CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
Thanks, yes we do have a lot going on, and mostly bad stuff!
It is my understanding that a quorum is 5 members. Our bylaws state
the board of directors shall constitute 9 members. It also says that
they have to fill the open positions the following month. I have
been told by attorneys and a few people on this site that the lowest
number present for a quorum would be 5. I understand why this would be,
if you had 3 people on the board and you kept voting against people you
could really do some damage. So I really think that the wording of our bylaws
by the word shall is the key.

You have a good idea in your community. I hope that we can get this straightened
out someday soon. They are going through our money with this lawsuit fast!
That is a good idea about spreading out the members of who get on the board.
Once people get the majority then they vote their friends in and you are in the
situation we are in.

Thanks again,
Cheryl
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CherylC1 on 05/29/2011 8:36 PM [Emphasis added]

Our bylaws state
the board of directors shall constitute 9 members.
It also says that they have to fill the open positions the following month.

Cheryl,

Even if the documents specify that a vacancy must be filled the following month, they can only be filled if there are volunteers.

I would suggest that you contact the board in writing with a list of volunteers willing to serve on the Board. Identify this requirement in the bylaws and see what happens. If they fill the seats - some things might start to be corrected. If they refuse to fill the seats - you will have more documentation for any legal process. Additionally, I suspect that the D&O insurance would refuse to cover any legal expenses since the Board would have knowingly refused to follow the bylaws.

Tim
MilesT (Texas)
Posts: 34
Posted:
Cheryl,

I agree with Tim. Get the volunteers then send a registered, notarized letter to the Board with their names. Include a date for their response. In addition to the certified letter, send an exact copy of the letter via US Mail. This prevents the recipients from claiming they did not receive any of them.

This might be the moment to find neighbors from different physical areas of the association to fill the positions!

Miles

CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
Hi Everyone!

Well things keep getting more interesting! I have an attorney who is going to start litigation with 4 of the 7 board members. We are suing them individually. They gave them another chance to let me take my rightful seat on the board but the 4 refused (they are on a Power trip and don't want to lose their majority!!). So they are going to be served next week.

We are going to contact the insurance company because we don't want them using our HOA money or attorney since
they have not followed by-laws. I really think they think they will be covered and won't have to pay anything.
Does anyone know anything about this? I am just curious. They probably have broken every by-law out there!
It is amazing that people can be like this. They really must be trying to hide something to go to this great length!!

Thanks!
Cheryl
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Hi Cheryl,

I suspect that since they are Board members that they will make an insurance claim and will contact the Association attorney. I also suspect that if the claim is denied, that they will use the Associations money to pay for the legal fees. Expecting this to be the case, it's highly possible that the Association might need to bring action against the individuals to recoup the legal costs.

If you win the lawsuit, or if you settle the suit, you may want to have language in there that the Association is not to be responsible for the fees.
CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
Hi!
Thanks for the info!! The lawsuit is suing 4 of the members individually and since they
have not followed our by-laws I was told that the HOA insurance will not cover them.
But thanks for the idea of putting that in the complaint about the HOA not being responsible
for their attorney fees. I know in the complaint it is going to say they are going to have
to pay my legal costs. I am meeting with the atty on Tuesday. I am also calling the HOA
insurance company tomorrow to give them a heads up on the lawsuit. I doubt they will cover
these jerks!! Any words of wisdom would be great! I need all the ammo I can get!!

Cheryl
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Cheryl:

I find it interesting even with an attorney you come to this site with no lawyers asking legal advice.

IF I had an attorney representing me they would be answering these questions not the member of HOATALK.

And before agreeing to file a lawsuit I would suggest you have a complete understanding of the laws, the possible outcomes and the cost.

Amazing how many people have so little understanding of the legal system including lawyers.

Cheryl what area of law does you lawyer practice in. General? Real Estate? HOA/Condo?

IF in your opinion the board members you plan to sue are not obeying the by-laws this does not allow for you to sue them as individuals. IF that were the case 99% of all board members would be legally liable.

The reason I know I was sued by an owner as an individual many times this is an attempt to intimidate the sued party.
That protion of the suit was thrown out as I was NOT liable personally as a member of the board. But lets hope your lawyer has read up on this.

I hope your lawyer is familiar with the laws in your state. And I hope you are ready for a long, expensive, drawn out legal fight.

In some cases when served with a lawsuit people dig in and resolution can come only through the courts. And that takes time and lots of money.

And as the insurance carrier is in contract with the board not you I would doubt they would take your view as the party taking legal action against the board, as whether they should cover the legal costs.

Might sound good and serve your purpose just not likely.

As the board's actions have yet to be determined in a court of law tough for the insruance carrier to make this determination.

Just what payment arrangement have you made with your lawyer? Per hour? And who is footing that bill?

And have you read the complaint they plan to file? Just what remedies are they asking for? Monetary damages included?

Have they given you any idea of how long this might take to work its way through the courts?

And in the end in a perfect world you hope to accomplish what? Get a seat on the board?

Make them obey the by-laws.

I hope you have considered the many consequences to your actions. The cost to your own property, the enemies you are about to make both on the board and fellow unit owners and can accept them all. You will be dealing with them all shortly.
CherylC1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 80
Posted:
Jon,

First of all I am just asking other people from this site to see if anyone else has gone through this.
My attorney is very knowledgeable and knows what he is doing but it doesn't hurt to see what other people have done.

And I can sue them individually. When people on the board are acting rogue and badly abusing the by-laws as well as spending our money, getting us involved in lawsuits against our school district and township and paying attorneys with our HOA money to keep people off the board they can be sued! I could care less
if I make any enemies, there are so many of us sick of watching this go on, it has to stop. We have tried
since last August and the only way is to involve an attorney.

It is a shame that people have to be like this, sure hope you aren't one of them!
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
First of all Cheryl I have been through this myself 4 times in fact.

And as I told you I was named as an individual defendant in one suit.

That effort was thrown out in court. In NY they call it the business judgment rule.

And I am trying to relate my understanding of what might occur.

Oh and by the way in the 4 cases all brought against the board we prevailed in all 4.

Perhaps Pa. is different but my guess the members of your board are offered some protection from personal liability as board members. They too have and attorney advising them. Maybe he is good at what he does too.

I find it interesting you didn't bother to respond to my questions. Sometimes people can hear only their view. I hope for your sake you are not one of them.

And in your original post you give the numbers of owners supporting your efforts as 15 out of 500. So the other 485 owners don't have an interest in fighting to gain a position on the board.

In the end you might not get what you think the legal system will provide. It rarely works out that way.

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