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BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
My HOA is thinking about dissolving. We own two small common areas (drainage retention, actually) and no real assetts (no picnic areas, tables, courts, buildings, etc.). Just two "empty" lots that need to be landscaped. Basically, we exist to take in dues, and pay for landscaping. Our CC&R's are not enforceable, and our last board election was before 2000 (since then, we have never had a quorum at an annual meeting to officially elect a new one, so the old one simply keeps serving. And believe me, it's bad when you can't get a quorum when all you need is 4 people).

Does anyone have information on how to, or what would happen if we dissolved? Just ceased to exist? What happens to the common areas? Do we deed them to the city? Can we? WHat pro's or con's are there to just being a street, and not an HOA?

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
bump...
EdR (Texas)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Brian:
It looks like no one has any experience in this area. I wouldn't mind dissolving our HOA--it has become a social organization with favoritism, corruption, etc. However, although this should be asked of an attorney who might specialize in that area, an HOA is a membership of sorts and I look at it as an outdoor dorm that everyone is responsible for keeping up; our dues combined pay to keep it nice and tidy and to cover any extras, there is the reserves build-up. HOAs are necessary evils because if you don't have an all or nothing at all, there will be some who would certainly opt out because a number of people just don't want to be told what to do, even the most minute things. I have lived in several HOAs and been on a board, and as I've mentioned in other topics, I've seen a lot go on, but I don't think a subdivision is better off with NO rules and not better off without the mandatory monies (dues) to cover maintenance, etc. However--our family lived in one subdivision and we loved the concept because it was perfect for our purposes and cut out the dealings with riff-raff over the amenities: The (mandatory) dues were a reasonable amount--like $200 to $250 per year per household and covered common area maintenance (mowing, weeding, and flowers), garbage collection (and maybe street lights), but there was a gorgeous clubhouse, tennis courts and Olympic-sized pool and membership into those three was $500 a year and optional. People from outside could even join, but we opted out because we had a pool in our back yard. We loved that concept. There was another tennis court in the subdivision that could be used too, that was kept up nicely. Our dues now are way more than $250 (they are double that), but there are fancier places closer by that are four times that. We'd like to have an option now in our HOA too.
EdR
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Brian, dissolution of an HOA can be tricky and should be described in your Declaration. Declarations can vary significantly, following are two examples in Colorado. For one the Declaration can not be terminated and the other allows the Common Interest Community to be terminated. Some HOA's just seem to die, however this does not necessarily relieve the homeowners of obligations.

13.1 Duration.
The covenants, restrictions and obligations of this Declaration shall run with and bind the land in perpetuity.

9. Termination of Common Interest Community
(a) Except in the case of a taking of all the Units by eminent domain, a Common Interest Community may be terminated only by agreement of Unit Owners of Units to which at least sixty-seven percent (67%) of the votes in the Association are allocated.

(b) An agreement of Unit Owners to terminate must be evidenced by their execution of a termination agreement or ratifications thereof in the same manner as a deed, by the requisite number of Unit Owners. The termination agreement must specify a date after which the agreement will be void unless it is recorded before that date. A termination agreement and all ratifications thereof must be recorded in every county in which a portion of the Common Interest Community is situated and is effective only upon recordation.

(c) Subject to the provisions of a termination agreement described in this section, the Association, on behalf of the Unit Owners, may contract for the sale of real estate in a Common Interest Community following termination, but the contract is not binding on the Unit Owners until approved pursuant to this Section. If any real estate is to be sold following termination, title to that real estate, upon termination, vests in the Association as trustee for the holders of all interests in the Units. Thereafter, the Association has all the powers necessary and appropriate to effect the sale. Until the sale has been concluded and the proceeds thereof distributed, the Association continues in existence with all the powers it had before termination. Proceeds of the sale must be distributed to Unit Owners and lien holders as their interests may appear, taking into account the value of the property owned or distributed that is not sold so as to preserve the proportionate interests of each Unit Owner with respect to all property cumulatively. Unless otherwise specified in the termination agreement, as long as the Association holds title to the real estate, each Unit Owner and the Unit Owner's successors in interest have an exclusive right to occupancy of the portion of the real estate that formerly constituted the Unit. During the period of that occupancy, each Unit Owner and the Unit Owner's successors in interest remain liable for all assessments and other obligations imposed on Unit Owners by this Article or the Declaration.

(d) Following termination of the Common Interest Community, the proceeds of any sale of real estate, together with the assets of the Association, are held by the Association as trustee for Unit Owners and holders of liens on the Units, as their interests may appear.

(e) Creditors of the Association who obtain a lien and duly record it in every county in which any portion of the Common Interest Community is located are to be treated as if they had perfected liens on the Units immediately before termination or when the lien is obtained and recorded, whichever is later.

(f) The respective interests of Unit Owners referred to in subsections (c), (d) and (e) of this Section 9 are as follows:
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection (f), the respective interests of Unit Owners are the combined fair market values of their Units and Allocated Interests immediately before the termination, as determined by one or more independent appraisers selected by the Association. The decision of the independent appraisers shall be distributed to the Unit Owners and becomes final unless disapproved within thirty (30) days after distribution by Unit Owners of Units to which twenty-five percent (25%) of the votes in the Association are allocated. The proportion of any Unit Owner's Interest to that of all Unit Owners is determined by dividing the fair market value of that Unit Owner's Unit and its Allocated Interests by the total fair market values of all the Units and their Allocated Interests.
(2) If any Unit or any limited Common Element is destroyed, to the extent that an appraisal of the fair market value thereof prior to destruction cannot be made, the interests of all Unit Owners are their respective Common Expense Liability immediately before the termination.

(g) Except as provided in subsection (h) of this section, foreclosure or enforcement of a lien or encumbrance against the entire Common Interest Community does not terminate, of itself, the Common Interest Community. Foreclosure or enforcement of a lien or encumbrance against a portion of the Common Interest Community other than withdrawable real estate does not withdraw that portion from the Common Interest Community. Foreclosure or enforcement of a lien or encumbrance against withdrawable real estate does not withdraw, of itself, that real estate from the Common Interest Community, but the Person taking title thereto may require from the Association, upon request, an amendment to the Declaration excluding the real estate from the Common Interest Community prepared, executed and recorded by the Association.

(h) If a lien or encumbrance against a portion of the real estate comprising the Common Interest Community has priority over the Declaration and the lien or encumbrance has not been partially released, the parties foreclosing the lien or encumbrance, upon foreclosure, may record an instrument excluding the real estate subject to that lien or encumbrance from the Common Interest Community. The Executive Board shall reallocate interests as if the foreclosed sections were taken by eminent domain by an amendment to the Declaration prepared, executed and recorded by the Association.

Hope this helps,
Roger
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Thank you both for your replies:

Our HOA is allowed by by-laws to "dissolve" (75% vote, i believe). However, one line in the by-law requires "with a letter from the city" as a milestone. I assume that means a letter from the city either "allowing" us to dissolve, or a letter from the city "agreeing to take over" maintenance of our two water retention basins.

It looks like from the second reply that we could dissolve if we get the votes AND can sell the title to the two common areas (water retention basins). However, i can't imagine anyone buying them, as I don't think the city will allow anything to be done with them (no building, for example).

THat remains our biggest issue right now: what to do with the basins. Basically, the only reason we exist and have dues is to pay for lanscaping of those two areas, as well as pay for insurance/etc. related to being an HOA. We have no really enforceable rules, and very little way to enforce the few we have... the state has removed that from us in Arizona. We seem to exist simply to continue existing.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Brian, from what you stated the owners can approve dissolution. Why not send a letter signed by the President and Secretary of your HOA to the City. It could include a statement, such as, "upon acceptance by the City of ______ , which is established by signature of the undersigned authorized representative of the City of ________ , the ____________ HOA herein transfers ownership of all of its common areas, including but not limited to the two water retension basins. You could provide for signatures and notaries by each signature.

This document could be filed with all counties involved. Then, with no common areas for which the homeowners could be liable, you could officially terminate the HOA at a meeting and file the minutes of that meeting with all counties involved.

Good Luck,
Roger

The legal disclaimer below applies.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
thanks. that's looking like the route to take, but we have to get city permission to take over the areas, and i can't get anyone in the city to say "yes"... which i can understand. I don't think anyone here has done that before.

After all, what if they say "no thanks, we don't want your stupid basins"?

JC3
Posts: 290
Posted:
Whatever happened to your association? Did you get it dissolved?
How did you handle the retention basins?
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
nope, never got dissolved. basically, we are in legal limbo due to apathetic owners.

I, luckily, took a job in another state, and no longer live there. HOA's are a thing of my past now, which explsins my absence from the board.

This HOA now exists with one person on the board: the "other" remaining board member from my time as president. When i resigned, he automatically became president. The third board member was automatically removed from office because he paid his dues late back in 2003 or so.. automatic dismissal from the board, under the rules.

Since about 2002, we have not been able to have an annual election to get new board members. We cannot get a quorum, we cannot now even get anyone nominated to serve. Without nominations, we cannot publish a ballot, without a ballot for absentee votes, we cannot hold an election. AZ state law forbids proxy votes, so we must have a viable ballot available.

So, the HOA still runs... and the president does the landscaping himself on the common areas/retention basins, and pays himself from the funds. It may be odd, but he does it for half the price of any landscapers, and does a much better job than any we ever had. last time i saw the place, it looked spotless.
AndrewF (Virginia)
Posts: 25
Posted:
My sisters did. Turns out they were having issues and someone discovered they articles were never recorded at the court house. Only what is officially recorded at the courthouse counts!!
MaryN (Virginia)
Posts: 125
Posted:
Andrew,
What happened to the community? Our HOA doesn't have properly recorded docs at the county courthouse...but did record the articles of incorporation in the state capitols courthouse..so it will remain an incorporated HOA not a mandatory POA..which in VA is required to be covered by the states POAVA...so curious..how did your sister's community fare?
MaryN
AndrewF (Virginia)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Sorry, I dont know all the details. Just that it was disolved. In fact it really never was!! They have no common areas except for a front gate. I think the homeowners all pitch in and keep it looking nice.
JulieD (Arizona)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Our HOA is also in Arizona (Phoenix) and it seems to be going down the same road as BrianB's. Ours didn't come into being until 2003, so we are newer. We are only 24 homes and seem to exist purely to maintain the retention basins the city does not want to pay for. We have no amenities and almost $500 of our budgeted (though rarely reached) income of approximately $1200 a month goes to landscaping. (Unlike the rest of the country, we have to landscape year-round because of our climate.)

We have one self-employed homeowner on the brink of foreclosure but can't garnish his wages due to his self-employment. We have another self-employed owner heading down the same path, with 2 liens already filed. Then there's the rental house that's in the process of going back to the bank and looks like a crack house. Our Board President (the only one because no one else will take the job) has wondered if we could just dissolve and give it back to the city. Our bylaws and CC&Rs have no provisions for dissolution; I've checked. We're facing fiscal insolvency and have barely enough to pay the bills yet alone sue all the people who owe us money. Attorneys want their money upfront, imagine that, in dealing with HOAs. Our Board is getting burned out. Giving the retention basins, dry wells, and landscaping back to the city seems like a real solution.

I am afraid if someone already dissolved an HOA they wouldn't be using this website. We are duly registered with the county and keep up that affiliation so that avenue wouldn't work.

I have scanned this site on numerous occasions and found lots of valuable information, but none that really fit our unique situation until now. Are there more Arizona HOAs out there that are very small in number and seem to exist purely to maintain areas leased to them by the city? How could you pursuade the city to take back property that will only cost them money to maintain? Any insights would be appreciated.
CharlesJ (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Who takes care of the roads and storm water management and snow removal,etc?
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Charles: City takes care of (snow) removal in the extremely remote chance that Tempe Arizona gets snow. They own the streets, so they own that maintenace too. Storm water is a non-issue, that's why the retention basins are built: no water can run off HOA property (in theory) to the city storm system. it must all be diverted to retention basins, and then soak into the ground there.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Julie: i believe you are stuck. I think this is one crack in the system that isn't thought out well. The cities want nothing to do with the management of the basins, lands, etc.. That is one reason they are so happy to have HOA's spring up, that's less landscaping, maintenance, etc. for them. IMO, there is NO way a city wants to take back/allow an HOA to dissolve. There is no upside for them, just downside.

HaroldS (Arizona)
Posts: 906
Posted:
I'm not sure what you mean by the retention basin being leased from the city. Your HOA owns that ground, and are responsible for maintaining it. Even IF you could convince the city to take it over, they would just establish a special taxing district to charge the owners within your HOA for the upkeep of the retention basin. No way will they just take it and maintain it out of general funds. Why do you think they insist a developer include a storm retention system in a proposal before they will give permission to build? Whoever dreamed up this strategy to save cities money is probably already enshrined in municipal sainthood somewhere.
Your other problem tho is the deed restrictions still attached to your property. They don't go away just because no one wants an HOA any more. If you are truly eliminating the HOA, you need to get these deed restrictions removed. I think it usually requires 100% approval of members to do that.

JulieD (Arizona)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Thank you Brian and Harold. I agree with everything you say. Our CC&Rs state, "The City of Phoenix is not responsible for, and will not accept maintenance of, any private facilities, landscaping, or similar improvements within the Common Area, the maintenance and responsibility for which will be that of the Association." It's a great deal for them--guess that's why Phoenix is one of the "Best Managed" cities in the country (or at least that's what the sign on 43rd and Glendale says!).

In answer to Charles' question, the streets and street lights are maintained by the city. Chances of snow in Phoenix, enough to accumulate and need clearing, is virtually impossible. I don't even think the city owns salt trucks or plows. When trees were trimmed after a monsoon storm and set out for a quarterly loose trash pick-up, the city would not pick them up because we pay for water only, not sewer and sanitation. Using that rationale, I would say the city wants nothing to do with the Common Areas.

It seems as if the retention basins being owned (you are right, Harold) by the HOA is limited to Arizona. I hadn't thought about the deed restrictions. I'll ask the management company about that.

I was afraid we are pretty much backed into a corner. I am preparing end-of-year "this is what you owe" letters with a sheet telling people what will happen if they don't pay, i.e., liens, garnishment and foreclosure and all the associated court and legal fees. Perhaps if people realize that when they go to sell the property they will be out several thousand dollars they might think twice, especially with the prices of housing decreasing so dramatically in this area.

Thank you so much for giving me your opinions. I really needed to know if we had pretty much exhausted our options and now I definitely have a better idea.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
technically Julie, your CC&R's have no legal bearing on what the city of phoenix can or won't do. They can say the city won't maintain or be responsible for the areas, but if the city wanted to be, they could (fed law trumps state law, state trumps county, county trumps city, city trumps business, etc.). However, the truth is very real: Phoenix will never take over those areas.

Harold is right too: if a city ever did take over common areas, they would very likely simply tax every home in the area an assessment to pay for the costs, plus overhead. That might or might not be a bargain for the HOA, depending on how badly their coffers were bleeding, etc. One thing for sure, the city won't put up with slackers on the tax assessments like HOAs usually do.

Lastly, dissolving of an HOA and the deed restrictions need not take 100% voting. Usually, the percentage of ownership votes required is written in the by-laws. Ours, for example, was 85% of all voting members for a majority to dissolve the HOA (AND, a written agreement from the city to allow us to dissolve).
JulieD (Arizona)
Posts: 5
Posted:
I realize the CC&Rs have no bearing on the City of Phoenix but I thought it does show that the city makes it pretty clear they are not interested in the retention basins. I had thought about the special taxing district but didn't know how they could do it until Harold brought up the deeds. And you are right, there won't be any wiggle room for owners. I will add that info to the "What happens if the HOA dissolves?" section of the deadbeat letter I am writing.

I am hoping I can salvage things before it gets too late. I am the Treasurer but also a stay-at-home mom so I can devote more time to this than most people. Our one and only President has 3 small children and work problems so he's doing the best he can but is burnt out.

My last ditch hope is to suggest that we forgo the monthly landscaping and use that money to sue/take to court those that owe the most. Paying up front court and lawyer fees have been killing us. Let's just hope it never gets to that point. In the mean time I will check into the bylaws about dissolving again. Ours seem to be absent that important point but I could be wrong.
JC3
Posts: 290
Posted:
Quote:
I will check into the bylaws about dissolving again. Ours seem to be absent that important point but I could be wrong.

We'll be in the same position one of these days, too--dissolving, that is. Your CC&Rs may speak of "terminating" rather than dissolving. That's the word our uses--termination--, and it's in the section after amending. Or possibly another word.
LaverneB (Florida)
Posts: 129
Posted:

That is to bad. Peple don't realize how HOA works, and it is a thankless job. I would check with a attorney about any monies that are involved or left, and give it back to them. You may be suprised how mwny come to meeting..good luck

HaroldS (Arizona)
Posts: 906
Posted:
Julie, how can you " forgo the monthly landscaping and use that money to sue/take to court those that owe the most." Isn't that giving ammunition to those and others to stop paying since they aren't getting "anything" for their dues? I know I would be pretty upset to have my dues go to a lawyer while the landscaping goes to pot. Have you raised your dues the maximum allowed by your documents or state law? The only other option is a special assessment which would probably not get approved.
I don't know if it would work, but could you stop paying the taxes on your retention and/or common area and allow it to go to sheriff auction? Our common area was this () close to being auctioned because the fired developer's management company did not forward our tax bills and no one on the board thought about changing the mailing address or even having to pay taxes (included the replacement management co - but that's another story). But it was caught by a new astute board member (my wife) and was paid just before the auction. I've always wondered if some unfortunate had bought it with the intention of selling it back to us at a premium, and we refused to buy it, what would have happened to the responsibility since we no longer owned it.
JulieD (Arizona)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Now you know why I am just Treasurer, Harold. I have the hot head while our President is a much more mellow guy. You are correct; I hadn't thought it all the way through, obviously. I just get so upset about the guy who's into us over $3k in back assessments and is just daring us (literally) into foreclosing on him.

We have considered a special assessment as our last resort, actually. First I am sending out, "In case you didn't realize it, our 2007 records show you are XX behind in assessments and if you don't pay, these are the things that can happen" letter. Our next Board Meeting is March 5 so we can see what, if anything, that effort produces.

On a happy note, our management company finally sent us the 2007 and 1/08 financial statements and our second biggest offender has started a payment plan. The December letter from the attorney must have worked.

We could stop paying taxes on the retention area but last year's taxes were a combined total of $55.60. We can still afford that and the management company is paying it as well as registering us with state annually, which is only $10. I wonder if some poor sap would buy it, with its valuation only at $500 for each parcel (there are 4 I think), I am sure they would think they are getting quite a deal. Hah!
JC3
Posts: 290
Posted:
I wonder if some poor sap would buy it, with its valuation only at $500 for each parcel (there are 4 I think), I am sure they would think they are getting quite a deal. Hah!

Heck yeah! fence them, stock them with fishies, buried treasure to dive for, rent cycle-boats, etc.

Somebody can always find a way to make a buck. (tuna turning pink...)http://www.snopes.com/business/market/pinkcan.asp

What else can they do with it?
set up a water slide park
rice paddy
grow frog legs
rent as a dog park
train dock dogs and retrievers
remote control boat races
water science classroom...
site for psychoanalysis (http://www.mhmail.com/articles/personal-development.html)
HaroldS (Arizona)
Posts: 906
Posted:
No they don't buy it to "use" - it can't ever be anything but a retention basin because of the deed restrictions on the retention property, but they buy it because they think it fell thru the cracks at the HOA and they can buy it cheap and "sell" it back to the HOA for more than they paid for it. Quick turnaround of their investment. Just wondering out loud what would happen if an HOA told them no thanks - you own it now, take care of it. LOL.
JC3
Posts: 290
Posted:
Of COURSE it's just a retention basin, and will soon dry up. that makes it all the more valuable--here today, gone tomorrow. Make hay while the sun shines, an'all that. Bigger bucks since the window of opportunity is soon to be closed.
But, while it's there, little boats can be raced on it, dock dogs and retrievers trained, etc...
puddle side parties, etc...


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