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Renters in condo complex

Started by SherrieL • 25 replies • 5536 views

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SherrieL (Colorado)
Posts: 22
Posted:
With out writing a long too do... we have tenants in a unit whose owners do not believe they are noisy even if we have been getting written complaints and fining them. Therefore, the other tenants and owners in the building are furious with the HOA for not evicting them. What I understand is: the HOA cannot immediately evict a tenant from an owned unit and the process for us to do anything is very lengthy... months? Any other ideas. They slam doors hard enough, pictures fall off the neighbors walls, they are loud and obnoxious, but as soon as they see the police come they get quiet. Their unit also is situated so they can see anyone coming... that might validate the noise. Anyway we have enough proof of the noise, we have started legal proceedures (HOA), tenants and owners don't think we are fast enough and are wanting to take us to small claims court.

Any ideas would be appreciated.
Thanks
SherrieL
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Your Condo can't evict someone's else's tenant. Renters have rights. Plus noise isn't a reason to evict unless it's in the owner's lease. However, that lease may say that the tenant MUST follow the rules of the HOA. Which leads to making sure your documents has a noise and fine statement in them. You can't arbitarily fine someone without it being in writing the ability to do so.

If the issue is resolved by calling the police then keep calling the police. This isn't an HOA issue as much as a public nuisance problem. There is a LINE between HOA responsibilities and the Law of the land so to speak. The HOA can act as a "Peer pressure" but they can't police.

You have ALOT of separate issues that need to be addressed. Which some are just out of the HOA's control. I am unclear if you are fining the tenant or the owner? It is ONLY the owner that is responsible for paying the fines. Plus fines can't be used as a basis for a lien/foreclosure. Only unpaid assessments can be. A good lawyer can easily have these fines tossed out in court. The HOA can ONLY hold the OWNER to the rules NOT the tenant.

Evictions take about a month to upwards to a year. If a tenant decides to "fight" the eviction they can continue doing so by responding to the eviction notices. This can take months to resolve before court action can finally overrided and eviction takes place. This is what the OWNER may face. It took me 5 months to evict my tenant.

Suing the HOA for lack of action is a complete empty threat. One inexperienced HOA members and BOD tend to fall for. Suing a HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. The HOA shouldn't sue but use the Lien/Foreclosure options at their disposal. They are cheaper and stronger than any lawsuit judgement could ever be. Besides, counter lawsuits are cheaper and better option.

The HOA really needs to know it's rights and evicting renters isn't one of them. Tell the neighbors to nail their pictures in better...
Former HOA President
SherrieL (Colorado)
Posts: 22
Posted:
Yes we have all the above written in our by-laws. We fined the owners of the units. We had our BOD meeting with both tenants and both owners... etc. Feb. 18th the police called me since I am president, they wanted to know why the HOA was not doing something about this and that it was was not the polices' responsibility. The police insisted I go over to the units to see if I could take care of this. Of course the noise makers were gone for the evening. (they had been called 7 different times, I have the police reports)
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Sherrie:

Just what amounts have you fined the unit owner? Have they paid these fines.

I'm sorry but the HOA is responsible or providing a safe and livable place for people to call home. It is not alone a police matter since hopefully you have rules that require behavior of some minimal standard. What rule have you cited for the previous fines?

What is your fine schedule. First fine? Second fine? Third fine? Same or do they increase.

ON our property the owner would be warned. Then fined and then fined until the behavior ceased or the tenant was gone. You the HOA cannot evict the tenant in a property you don't own. You can make it so the rent paid becomes less than the fines if your documents allow.

We would fine for the noise and we also have a fine if the behavior of the resident requires the police to be called $100 for the owner to pay.

First fine $100
Second $200
Third $300
Fourth $1,000,000.00

That reduces are problems greatly.

Good luck.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Hi Sherrie:

What you do is you give the owners the link to CCIOA:
http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&cp=

TITLE 38 PROPERTY - REAL AND PERSONAL
Art. 33. Condominium Ownership Act, 38-33-101 to 38-33-113.
Art. 33.3. Colorado Common Interest Ownership Act, 38-33.3-101 to 38-33.3-401.

Let them know if they find a statute governing Condominiums or under CCIOA which states that the HOA has the authority to evict a tenant you will be more than happy to follow up regarding the situation.

Potentially unless there is something specific in your governing documents which would not violate any state statutes stating that the HOA can evict a tenant; then it will fall under Landlord/Tenant statutes and in which case it is the Landlord/Unit Owner who has this authority.

The HOA can enforce the CCR’s and fine the owner. Eventually the owner should become tired of being fined and will then evict the tenants. I agree with Jon you may need to review your fine amounts, he has a good point that when the fines become more than the rent the owner will move so fast on this issue your head will spin.

SherrieL (Colorado)
Posts: 22
Posted:
Thank you everyone for your input. I think I have received confirmation of our actions and more ideas to alieviate the problem in the future. I will take these ideas to the board and mainly, I think we need to increase the fines.

Thanks again,
SherrieL
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Sherrie:

So what are your fine amounts now?

And do you have rules and regulations which the Board can add to?

In the event a resident's behavior or actions result in the police being called to the property this will result in an immediate _______ fine. No warnings. This rule works for us and covers situations similar to yours.
RobW (California)
Posts: 279
Posted:
Depending on the state and the particular governing documents, an HOA can fine renters, as well as owners. Collecting may be problematic, but a good collection agency can make life miserable for both the renters and the owner, who are all at fault.

The stone wall you ran into with the police is pretty typical in cases where there is no working relationship between the HOA and the PD. The police will often shrug their shoulders and say they have no jurisdiction on private property, and try to get the HOA to handle noise complaints. However, your authority is severely limited. One thing we rely on here is that the local town in which our community is located has a noise abatement ordinance, starting at 10:00 P.M. At 10:01, we will call the police in similar situations, and they have no choice but to respond.

We've found that it really helps to request an appointment with someone high in the food chain at the PD, to find out how best to handle these issues.

If you can't get the police to see and hear for themselves how these people are disturbing the peace, try shooting some video and showing it to someone higher up in the PD. What they will do, if they are professionals, is send a plain clothes cop out in an unmarked car to check it out, the next time they get a complaint.

Rob
BrianK1 (Colorado)
Posts: 54
Posted:
Cases like this make me want to be sure that when my Association's Delaration is amended and restated, it will say something like the following:

If the tenants break the rules and are breaking their lease, the Association would request that the owner evict the tenants, and failing to do that, the owner grants the Association power of attorney to evict the tenants as if the Association was the owner.

The state CCIOA law doesn't prohibit this right for common interest communities. The Association would want the rule violations to be documented, such as with police reports.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Hi Brian ... I also was curious about that until I viewed other statutes.

CCIOA may not prohibit, but an HOA still would need to follow Landlord and Tenant statutes. I would recommend reviewing those before potentially getting HOA involved in evicting a tenant. One thought is if the HOA evicts, who could be legally liable with regards to return of deposit money or other issues. While landlord potentially is responsible that does not mean a tenant will not try to sue the HOA.

CherylL7 (Michigan)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Is it legal in the state of Michigan to evict renters from a55+ condo who are not 55 but have lived there for 27 months..the wife is disabled
CherylL7 (Michigan)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Is it legal in the state of Michigan to evict renters from a55+ condo who are not 55 but have lived there for 27 months..the wife is disabled
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CherylL7 on 08/29/2014 12:33 PM
Is it legal in the state of Michigan to evict renters from a55+ condo who are not 55 but have lived there for 27 months..the wife is disabled

Cheryl for who to evict them. the owner or the HOA? Assuming you are speaking about the HOA evicting them, probably not unless something in either the lease, your documents or state law allow it and this is very important only for a valid reason that is allowed in the landlord tenant act for your state. This is something that should be run past the HOA's attorney first. But generally speaking if the tenant is acting up, your first option is to deal with the homeowner and fine them if allowed by your CC&R's.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
CherylL7 (Michigan)
Posts: 5
Posted:
For the HOA association...solely on the age restriction clause in the by-laws
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Cheryl since I do not have access to your documents, I'm going to reiterate that the Board should run it by the HOA's attorney first. I believe the law allows up to 20% non age conforming residents.

http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/progdesc/title8

HOPA retains the requirement that housing must have one person who is 55 years of age or older living in at least 80% of its occupied units. It also still requires that housing publish and follow policies and procedures that demonstrate an intent to be housing for persons 55 and older (rather than housing for adults or for singles, for example).

An exempt property will not violate the Fair Housing Act if it excludes families with children, but it does not have to do so. Of course, the property must meet the Act's requirements that at least 80% of its occupied units have at least one occupant who is 55 or older, and that it publish and follow policies and procedures which demonstrate an intent to be 55 and older housing.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Oops hit sent too soon. Why has the HOA waited 27 months to deal with this???????????????????
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
CherylL7 (Michigan)
Posts: 5
Posted:
They don't like the couple living there...there are only 3 people who feel this way
CherylL7 (Michigan)
Posts: 5
Posted:
The wife is on disability and it will be difficult to relocate to somewhere equivalent in this area they are both going to be 55 in 15 months
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Well unless your CC&R's absolutely forbid anyone under the age of 55, I'd say the 3 people are SOL (sorry outta luck) and even if the Board were to try to evict them, they (the renters) could probably stretch out the process until one of them became 55.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JonD1 on 03/30/2011 4:09 PM
We would fine for the noise and we also have a fine if the behavior of the resident requires the police to be called $100 for the owner to pay.

Interesting.

What do you do when HO #1 calls the police out of spite? Sometimes it's a race to the phone.

How do you keep tabs on when a police complaint is filed?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Sounds like a personal issue... What do you do when someone tries to have you evicted out of spite? Goes both ways. Police complaint filed? Is that not how you keep up with that information?

A HOA is NOT responsible for your personal issues or opinions. Someone calls the police, then you talk the police. Leave the HOA out of it.

The HOA does NOT own that property and thus can not evict who lives in it. They also can't enforce their rules on non-members. Renters are non-members. Who is responsible? The owner who owns the property. They are the HOA member. Even their hands are tied in evicting. Renters have rights too. Can't evict them if they are not following the rules of the HOA, if that is not in the rental agreement between tenant and owner.

I'd suggest acting like adults and stop looking for outside sources to solve your issues. They don't really care. Plus if came to me, you won't like the solution I'd suggest.... Keep your personal business out of the HOA's business. I am sure no one else wants the drama brought to their door either.
Former HOA President
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Unlike some others our board feels we DO have the responsibiliy and right to conrol behavior on the property.

No only does it make the property desirable it also helps to maintain property values versus places where anything goes

We do not tolerate noise, loud music, and behavior that might prevent the other residents from enjoying THEIR homes be they owners or tenants.

Our fines do include when the behavior of a resident requires a police response. Now that does require some common sense when enforcing. Should it be a fire or medical emergency we certainly would not fine those parties. But when we have continuing domestic conflicts, perhaps fireworks being set off, people loitering on the property,
we recently had a young amn who thought shooting his piant gun off in the parking lots in the early morning was a OK. Those sort of unnecessary disturbances we try our best to control.

In the years this rule has been in affect we have not had the he said she said scenario
if so we would use our best judgement and enforce our rules accordingly.

In my 27 years serving and living on this property you have a prety good sense of where the problems lie and with whom.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/30/2014 7:46 AM
Sounds like a personal issue... What do you do when someone tries to have you evicted out of spite? Goes both ways. Police complaint filed? Is that not how you keep up with that information?

A HOA is NOT responsible for your personal issues or opinions. Someone calls the police, then you talk the police. Leave the HOA out of it.

The HOA does NOT own that property and thus can not evict who lives in it. They also can't enforce their rules on non-members. Renters are non-members. Who is responsible? The owner who owns the property. They are the HOA member. Even their hands are tied in evicting. Renters have rights too. Can't evict them if they are not following the rules of the HOA, if that is not in the rental agreement between tenant and owner.

I'd suggest acting like adults and stop looking for outside sources to solve your issues. They don't really care. Plus if came to me, you won't like the solution I'd suggest.... Keep your personal business out of the HOA's business. I am sure no one else wants the drama brought to their door either.

Melissa

Please read the context of the thread before you get on your soap-box.

I was not asking about the problems of the personal disputes, evictions, or anything of the kind. I was asking about a very specific situation where the HOA has a POLICY OF FINING A HOMEOWNER WHEN THE POLICE ARE CALLED. I was asking how the HOA deals with THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE and not about whether HOAs should get in the middle of the dispute. You didn't answer my questions about such a policy. If you have experience in this area, I would be interested in HOW YOUR HOA HAS DEALT WITH IT.
Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JonD1 on 08/30/2014 8:51 AM
Unlike some others our board feels we DO have the responsibiliy and right to conrol behavior on the property.

No only does it make the property desirable it also helps to maintain property values versus places where anything goes

We do not tolerate noise, loud music, and behavior that might prevent the other residents from enjoying THEIR homes be they owners or tenants.

Our fines do include when the behavior of a resident requires a police response. Now that does require some common sense when enforcing. Should it be a fire or medical emergency we certainly would not fine those parties. But when we have continuing domestic conflicts, perhaps fireworks being set off, people loitering on the property,
we recently had a young amn who thought shooting his piant gun off in the parking lots in the early morning was a OK. Those sort of unnecessary disturbances we try our best to control.

In the years this rule has been in affect we have not had the he said she said scenario
if so we would use our best judgement and enforce our rules accordingly.

In my 27 years serving and living on this property you have a prety good sense of where the problems lie and with whom.


Thanks Jon.
Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/30/2014 7:46 AM
The HOA does NOT own that property and thus can not evict who lives in it.

Really Melissa tell us more. I'll have to write to my state representatives and tell them this is not a valid law and must be stricken from the Ohio statutes at once: (emphasis added)

5311.19 Compliance with deed restrictions, declaration, bylaws and administrative rules and regulations.

(A) All unit owners, their tenants, all persons lawfully in possession and control of any part of a condominium property, and the unit owners association of a condominium property shall comply with all covenants, conditions, and restrictions set forth in a deed to which they are subject or in the declaration, the bylaws, or the rules of the unit owners association, as lawfully amended. Violations of those covenants, conditions, or restrictions shall be grounds for the unit owners association or any unit owner to commence a civil action for damages, injunctive relief, or both, and an award of court costs and reasonable attorney's fees in both types of action.

(B)

(1) Except as otherwise provided in the declaration or the bylaws, a unit owners association may initiate eviction proceedings, pursuant to Chapters 5321. and 1923. of the Revised Code, to evict a tenant for a violation of division (A) of this section. The action shall be brought by the unit owners association, as the unit owner's agent, in the name of the unit owner.

(2) In addition to any procedures required by Chapters 5321. and 1923. of the Revised Code, the unit owners association shall give the unit owner at least ten days written notice of the intended eviction action.

(3) The costs of any eviction action brought pursuant to division (B)(1) of this section, including reasonable attorney's fees, shall be charged to the unit owner and shall be the subject of a special assessment against the offending unit and made a lien against that unit.

Cite as R.C. § 5311.19
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
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