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DennisD7 (California)
Posts: 1
Posted:
There is an owner who lives on the 18th floor of a San Francisco high-rise condominium. When the family moved in (and subsequently when they moved additional articles of furniture in) it was necessary for their movers to remove the drop ceiling panels in the elevator cab of the building’s passenger elevator to provide the headroom necessary to fit some pieces of furniture. No tools were necessary and no mechanical fasteners were involved. The removal of ceiling panels was just like the removal of Celotex drop ceiling panels. Just push up and slide over. Two identical passenger elevators serve the building. There are no freight elevators and only interior and exterior fire stairwells. Other than moving costs, there were no fees associated with these moves charged by or paid to the HOA.

The Board of the Association recently decided to enhance the elevators’ cabs’ appearance by installing a fixed drop lighted ceiling, without any notice to the owners and residents that the utility of the elevators would be diminished, thus prohibiting some furniture from fitting in the elevator cab.

The owner in question is planning some redecoration and it would appear that the only way to remove or install large furniture is through the fire stairwells. Needless to say, this will add expense for the labor required for the 18 story move/s. The Board has proposed an alternative, i.e., for a fee of $800 to be paid by residents (each time) they will arrange for the building’s elevator service firm to send two men out to operate the elevator so that the roof of the elevator is level with the elevator lobby floor when the elevator lobby doors are opened, thus allowing the furniture to ride down to ground level (or up from ground level) on the roof of the elevator cab.

The fee for this service, while reasonable in magnitude for the work the elevator service company would perform, is considered unreasonable by the owner because the family’s expectations, which are reasonable from some perspectives, are that what goes up should be able to come down the same way and at similar costs (historically, free in this case).

-Did the Board act within their rights in making the modification without notice of the consequences to owners?
-Can owners’ furniture effectively be “held hostage” for the $800 fee as is proposed? (No rules on point, nor schedule of fees/fines, have been adopted or published.)
-Would the proper adoption of a rule suffice? What about right now, when the owner wants to move furniture and before such rule adoption has taken place?
-Is use of the fire stairwells for furniture movement legal?
-Should the Association/Board be warned of any potential liability or any legitimate or legal recourse the owner might have?

Thanks in advance for your insights and comments.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
oooh, i love cool/weird questions!

My two cents:

Did the Board act within their rights in making the modification without notice of the consequences to owners? Yes, but rights and doing right are two different things. I suspect the board had the right/power to do such a thing, but they should have done it in a different manner.

-Can owners’ furniture effectively be “held hostage” for the $800 fee as is proposed? (No rules on point, nor schedule of fees/fines, have been adopted or published.) Probably, yes it can. there are options available to get around the problem, it's just that no one likes the options.

-Is use of the fire stairwells for furniture movement legal? check with your fire marshall, but probably, if the furniture wasn't stationary during the time.

-Should the Association/Board be warned of any potential liability or any legitimate or legal recourse the owner might have? Yup.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Hi Dennis … Per your questions:

-Did the Board act within their rights in making the modification without notice of the consequences to owners?
This would depend on what your governing documents state as to whether the board alone can make these changes or if these changes must be voted by members. If they had been smart they would have received opinions from the homeowners and this potential problem could have been addressed before the changes were made.

-Can owners’ furniture effectively be “held hostage” for the $800 fee as is proposed? (No rules on point, nor schedule of fees/fines, have been adopted or published.)
This would be something to potentially ask your HOA attorney. Individuals purchase their homes based on what is available at the time of purchase and the rules in place. While they know rules can be changed and most times need to be voted by members, to make physical changes without membership approval and which hinders access might give homeowners an edge. As you stated, what goes up must eventually come back down. Potentially the HOA could be responsible for the $800 fee every time a homeowner needs access because they made the change that now denies access homeowners previously had available.

-Is use of the fire stairwells for furniture movement legal?
This would be something the local fire marshal’s office could tell you whether or not it is legal. They may have a problem with an oversized sofa potentially blocking the stairwell in case of a fire.

-Should the Association/Board be warned of any potential liability or any legitimate or legal recourse the owner might have?
Yes

My two cents … change one of the elevators to enable movement of furniture or equipment as needed. At some point this could be an issue for the HOA when they need to potentially do repairs or something themselves and cannot get large pieces of sheetrock or lumber up to a higher floor for repairs.
AnnD2 (Connecticut)
Posts: 76
Posted:
In CT the intentions of a Board to make such a modification would have had to been made public before it was done, and there would have had to have been an opportunity for comment and input by the membership.

Having said that, how is it that a board didn't know that this sort of thing happened? Is this the only time anyone has ever had to move the tiles over?

Whether the Board has a responsibility should be clear in the bylaws. They should state whether or not a board has the right to make modifications to the common areas without input and approval from the entire membership. If the board acted unlawfully, then the residents should not have to cover any expense incurred in the removal of their furniture. On the other hand, if the board had the right to make these modifications without public comment and approval, then it seems the question becomes an ethical one--what is fair? In that case, if there were no objections to the furniture going up and the tiles being moved, there shouldn't be any objections and fees associated with their removal....If there is cost involved in this, the cost should be absorbed by the condo-at-large/the board, because it was their (short-sighted) decision to make this modification without taking into account all the possible consequences....A stitch in time, etc....
DanielH1 (California)
Posts: 482
Posted:
Yes, I believe that the Board was within their rights. The elevator still serves its primary purpose: to move people.

The owners' furniture is not held hostage. The owner is free to disassemble/destroy their furniture, sell it with the unit, sell it to a neighbor on the same floor or move it through the stairs. Even though the owner found a way to get his furniture up there, he had no guarantee or right to expect that that use of the elevator would be preserved.

The HOA really doesn't have to provide any option for the owner, as I see it. Certain furniture may be impossible to get to and put in the unit; the HOA doesn't have any obligation to provide a way to convey various kinds of furniture into a unit. Since the elevators are Common Area, the owner must ask permission of the Board and, if the Board insists, pay to get the job done and even pay additional fees (surcharges) to the HOA. The owner can negotiate with the Board directly before the rule is put in place or wait and abide by any rule that the Board does put in place.

I don't know if fire stairwells are allowed for furniture or not. My guess would using the stairwells would be allowed by the fire code.

It is always nice to warn the Board if you plan to sue them. I don't really see the homeowner having recourse.

I understand that this is a tough situation for the owner but, in this case, he relied on something that isn't within his control.
AnnD2 (Connecticut)
Posts: 76
Posted:
HOA Boards make mistakes. There also is the mistaken impression by many board members that once they become a member of that part of the organization they have morphed into something and someone special....They haven't. They are on the board to provide a service to their fellow members, to protect their mutual investments and to provide a pleasant living environment for the entire community.

It is a very difficult job and a time consuming one, if done properly. A great deal of the job description for a good board member is having humility as well as having the ability to compromise and to deal with conflict. Ordering people around and never taking responsibility for bad decisions remain two of the reasons there are so many problems with too many HOA's....

A member of an HOA should never be told by his/her board, "Tough. It's our way or the highway...." Members are due the same respect board members claim for themselves. In this example, the members didn't do anything to warrant this sort of treatment by their board. The board just got lazy and made a quick and seemingly simple decision. It exemplifies why there are procedures and why they need to be followed; no board really has all of the answers and knows the entire story without doing a little investigative work....
DanielH1 (California)
Posts: 482
Posted:
The question seems to be: "Does the Board have the obligation to maintain the Common Areas such that they can be used for the same price and for EVERY purpose as they've ever been used before?"

For example, can the HOA unroot a tree and replace it with a different kind of tree? A homeowner might complain that they used the previous tree with a rope swing for their kids and the new tree doesn't have the limb in the right place. Since the homeowner used it once for a rope swing, does that mean that it must be maintained forever such that a rope swing might be attached.

I think that the burden of maintaining a list of purposes which Common Area elements had ever been used is too high.

It is relevant that the owner had to modify the elevator in order to accomplish his purpose (albeit a trivial modification). He'd have a better case if the elevator had been made smaller capacity, instead of a modification that he made before now not being available.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Daniel ... Per: My guess would using the stairwells would be allowed by the fire code.

Many years ago I lived in a five story apartment complex. If an item could be carried by one person then the stairwell could be used for all floors. Items requiring two or more people to carry could only use the stairwell up to the third floor, otherwise the elevator had to be used for oversized/heavy items. If I remember this was because at that time the local fire truck ladders would only reach to the third floor in case of fire. With current technology they probably now reach higher, but I believe they definately do not reach up to the 18th floor.

Of course different cities/states will have different laws regarding this issue.
RobW (California)
Posts: 279
Posted:
(Wearing my California ARC chair and former Board presidents hat now)

In my opinion, the Board is way off-base on this. The Board made a mistake in changing the capacity of the elevator cab, without warning, and without taking a survey of the homeowners in advance. The homeowners with over-sized furniture could have made arrangements to remove it before the change, or otherwise object to the plan, but were not given an opportunity to do so.

If the normal practice, approved by the Association, had been to allow transport of furniture pieces whose length exceeded the height of the cab by the simple expedient of moving ceiling panels out of the way, then the burden is on the HOA to accommodate the removal of overlong furniture from the building.

However, it is also the responsibility of the HOA to either (1) now notify all homeowners of the new height restrictions in the cab, so future purchases the homeowners might make will take this into consideration, or (2) - my recommendation - rethink the change to the ceiling of the cab.

Either way, in my opinion, the HOA is now responsible for providing a means for furniture that was brought in by elevator, to be brought out the same way, at no charge to the homeowners.

Rob
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Pretty simple issue. The elevator was renovated, it cant stay the same forever. People moving have access to the stairs. They will use the stairs. End of story.

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