Towing vehicles

I live in a condo community in Alpharetta, GA. Receintly at around 6:00 AM on a Sunday I had put the front of my car up on jack stands while I was attempting to replace a ball joint. I left the car to retrieve additional tools at approximatly 7:15 AM. When I returned at 10:30AM the vehicle was gone along with the jack stands. I inquired if my neighbors had seen what had happened to my car. One of the neighbors stated that at approximately 7:30 AM the association manager had put a towing warning sticker on my front windshield. The vehicle was parked in my assigned location not disrupting others.
The first question: Is a certian amount of time need to be given before towing... and secondly: Am I justified in filing a claim for the towing fee at a Small Claims Court. I hope you can help!

Check your documents on what it states about working on your vehicle. Most state that you cannot keep a vehicle up on blocks, etc., so that the neighborhood is not littered with unsightly junk cars for long periods of time. If you were in violation, seems a letter should have been mailed instead of instantly towing your car. I would also talk to the person who ordered the towing. Is it posted that cars will be towed at the owners expense? If not you may have some recourse. Has anyone else had this problem with the 'condo comando'? Also, I would request a hearing to recoup your expenses that the association caused you to incur.

"Condo commando"?

When you buy property in a community with CC&Rs, you are buying into a community with expected standards of conduct (the CC&Rs). Why is a person who enforces thos standards called a "condo commando" or any other derogatory name? Is this any different than a police officer doing his or her job?

If you want to work on cars in your driveway, thay's your choice. Just make sure it's allowed before you purchase the property.

It's an easy argument, perhaps I should have made the comparison to a "concerned citizen" contacting law enforcement.

On the other hand, it doesn't take any special training or education to recognize a pile of trash put out on the wrong day, a car up on blocks, an RV parked in the yard, etc. Apparent violations are turned in to the BOD or ACC for consideration (at least in our HOA). A decision is made on the validity of the complaint and the disposition (phone call, visit, letter, fine, etc.)

Without a few concerned members, there would be little point in having an HOA or CC&Rs in the first place.

We don't all have management companies.

Grade school? All these people read or should have read the CC&Rs before they purchased their property. They made the decision based on living within these rules and regulations. I do and I expect my neighbors to do so also. Please document your information on Arizona requiring disclosure.

Why do you think a neighborhood is better if nobody reports any violations?

Here you go Ron: section C, D & E of ARS 33-1803. Look particularly at D.3. Should an MC try to "cover" for an anonymous tip by saying they were the one who first observed the violation: No. 1 they must put that in writing that it was only their observation , and No. 2, see Section E where the MC will be required under oath again to affirm that fact should the member decide to challenge him/her by petitioning for a hearing before an administrative law judge. I seriously doubt an MC is going to hang himself out to dry to cover for a member. Harold

ARS 33-1803
C. A member who receives a written notice that the condition of the property owned by the member is in violation of the community documents without regard to whether a monetary penalty is imposed by the notice may provide the association with a written response by sending the response by certified mail within ten business days after the date of the notice. The response shall be sent to the address contained in the notice or in the recorded notice prescribed by section 33-1807, subsection J.

D. Within ten business days after receipt of the certified mail containing the response from the member, the association shall respond to the member with a written explanation regarding the notice that shall provide at least the following information unless previously provided in the notice of violation:

1. The provision of the community documents that has allegedly been violated.

2. The date of the violation or the date the violation was observed.

3. The first and last name of the person or persons who observed the violation.

4. The process the member must follow to contest the notice.

E. Unless the information required in subsection D, paragraph 4 of this section is provided in the notice of violation, the association shall not proceed with any action to enforce the community documents, including the collection of attorney fees, before or during the time prescribed by subsection D of this section regarding the exchange of information between the association and the member. At any time before or after completion of the exchange of information pursuant to this section, the member may petition for a hearing pursuant to section 41-2198.01 if the dispute is within the jurisdiction of the department of fire, building and life safety as prescribed in section 41-2198.01, subsection B.

Scary, come-on Harold we're not talking about sending people to prison here. Sorry Jerry, I'm not picking on you here but if my neighbor has his car up on blocks working on it and is not even there, I'm going to call somebody about it. Besides being against the CC&R's, it's a safety hazard. How would you feel if you decided it was none of your business and didn't report it (which is your right by the way) and it fell on some curious kid who just wanted to see what was under the car.

Well I'm on the BOD and if I see a flagrant violation of the CC&R's I can't ignore it. I am not a "Condo Commando" nor as I've made it clear to homeowners am I the "Condo Police". If someone is breaking the law we tell them to call the local police. If someone is breaking the rules and preventing their neighbors from enjoying their home we go and talk to them and ask for their cooperation or we send them a warning letter. The first letter they get from the Association takes the tact of you may not be aware you're breaking a rule, remind them that by buying here they agreed to follow the rules and ask them to please start/stop doing _______________. If it's a safety violation we act.

I agree with you that no one has a duty to report violators except members of the BOD but if they report something that prevents them from enjoying the use of their homes or the amenities does not make them
"snitches" or "tattletales". Now every community even non-HOA ones have busy bodies, people who feel the need to get in everyone's business and I know the newspapers are full of stories of HOA's gone "Mad". I live in a Condo Community of 132 units and in the two years I've been on the BOD we have issued no fines except for late fee's on assessments and the only people we've thrown out are ones who were seriously behind (over a year) in their assessments. While we've put tow notices on cars, we've not had to tow any, people got the message. In our community the MC does not run things, if they see a violation they report it to the BOD and we decide how to handle it.

Well this has gone on too long and we've totally gotten away from Jerry's original posting which was answered a while ago. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it's obvious that we don't see eye to eye on this one, so let's agree to disagree.

Same here.

We sent everyone a "condensed" version of the CC&Rs with their newsletter and dues notice a few days ago. Nobody has an "excuse" that they don'y have the "rules".

First violation gets a visit from a member of the ACC. Second is a polite letter. After that, a letter from the lawyer with a fine. It seldom comes to that.

Bottom line is that if you don't enforce the "rules" you soon have no rules.

but sniping is so much fun...

Ron, i am curious... after looking at that website, i wonder once again: does anyone have an factual data about the value of an HOA? Is there any statistics that show that property values rise faster in an HOA neighborhood versus a non-HOA neighborhood? Or that they stay higher, for comparable properties?

I know here in Phoenix, my house increased greatly over the past decade, with the real estate market in a boom. However, i also know the houses one street over, that are not HOA controlled, also increased. According to the info I can find from our county assessors, etc., the rate of increase in property value is exactly the same for my lot, and theirs. In the past twelve years, my home has increased 250%. The homes on the next street over have also increased about 250%.

I think the problem is any study could not account for all the variables. For example, most new suburbs construction now has a HOA so 'comparable' non-HOA properties may be difficult to find. HOA developments now typically have amenities that non-HOA properties can't normally have: clubhouses, pools, tennis courts, private parks, etc. The other issue is enforcement. If a HOA doesn't enforce it's rules then it will look like a community with no rules. It's subjective, but I know in my town two communties with strict rules and super active HOAs have had astronomical demand and price growth compared to other HOA communties that now look run down after only 5-10 years. That's right, I said other 'HOA' communities...HOAs that don't enforce or don't have strict rules to begin with. It's not HOA vs. non-HOA; it's that people buy on 'looks' and these active HOA communities with strict rules look great. Manicured lawns, well kept homes, no 'tacky' decorations outside, etc. Curb appeal sells and in my little example, the neighborhoods that look great have a 20%-30%/sq. ft price premium. Again, it's only one example in one price range in one town; your mileage may vary. However, if there was no HOA and these places still looked the same and had the same fees for private amenities then the price premium would still be there. It's not the HOA; it's that 'nice' sells and it's hard to get a consistently 'nice' community without rules.

On the other hand, some non-HOA properties that have higher value are:
- Quaint neighborhoods in a historic district that have stricter rules than any HOA
- Country properties with large lots and less restrictions

However, I'd take this bet any day:
Build two 100 home subdivisions side by side in the suburbs with the same type homes and lot sizes at the same price. Give both no ammenities but one has a HOA with strict cosmetic rules (that make sense) and actually enforces them. The other has no rules at all. Come back in 5-10 years and compare values. The HOA that actually enforces a 'good' set of rules will have higher home values. In those 5-10 years people in the non-HOA will have painted ugly colors, done tacky yard art, put up rusty metal sheds, ugly fencing choices, etc. Not everyone has marketable tastes and this does affect many buyer's willingness to live next to them, which affects prices. Again, it's not HOA vs. non-HOA; HOA is just a means to accomplish rule enforcement. Historic districts can accomplish the same goal with no HOA. Some small communities accomplish the same goal with their own government-enforced rules.

In very hot seller's markets like AZ or CA maybe the difference will be less. In a buyer's market no one has to buy the unpleasant looking neighborhood.

There was another discussion on this at the following address:
http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/2788/Default.aspx

One comment there is:
" I am a Realtor and HOA VP in Illinois. I can say in our area, homes in HOA's do appeciate faster/maintain value more than homes that are not.

A few of the more simple reasons why in my neighborhood:
You won't have a neighbor who stores their 29 foot boat and trailer in their driveway.
Your neighbor cannot paint their home purple.
Your entrance landscaping and pond will look nice. If it does not, the city will take care of it for you and send a big bill.
No fences falling down, giant above ground pools, sodium lights, etc.

In some areas near us with no HOA...these things exist. And even if it is just the perception of the 'quality' of the neighborhood, it matters."

If you're paying $1200 per year in association dues, I suspect you're receiving some value in addition to CC&R enforcement. Something like a clubhouse, pool, tennis courts, boat landing, or grounds and exterior maintenance.

Our dues are $145.00 per year. The bulk of this goes for landscaping and maintenance of "common areas". The rest is spent on taxes, legal fees, lighting, etc. There is no management company.

You're right about the neighbors. People willing to take care of their property and follow the "rules" presented to them before they purchased the property are generally "good neighbors".

Luckily I am not paying $1200 a year.. only $240. Most of that goes to maintaining our landscaping, and paying insurance/liability because we have common areas... areas that no one can use for any purpose that i can see... Basically, they are two large pits/water retention basins. We exist only to maintain the common areas, the common areas exist only because we are an HOA.

However, i do know places in Phoenix where association dues are well over the $2000/year range, and there are no other community benefits for them than I have, except their water retention basin is a small lake, with no swimming, boating or access rights either... Not even a walking path around it.