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AngelaG6 (Georgia)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Hello all, I am the president of my HOA. There is a slow shift within my community of a few homeowners taking it upon themselves to basically ignore our covenants. A couple of homeowners have painted their homes outside of the color scheme of the neighborhood and I am also presented with an issue whereby a homeowner is in violation with a fence that has been installed. In addition, none of these homeowners have put in the necessary paperwork to have the modifications done to their homes.

I feel that this attitude could incite a string of violations and in an effort to try to nip this problem in the bud I would like to write a letter to the whole community about the consequence of this behavior to the neighborhood i.e. a turn for the worst in our property values.

Does anyone know where I can turn to for the right wording that can explain the reason and importance of our subdivision having uniformity and how not having uniformity affects the perceptions of potential buyers?
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
As I don't believe in the myth that complacency and uniformity impact property values, I can't help you with the words to sell it. sorry.

The best I can do is advise you to write about what the contract states, how people should be good to their word, and the importance of obeying rules that one agreed to. Perhaps responsibility, maturity, ownership, trustworthiness could be used. Role model is also good, people should be good role models for their children, and keep to their word.
HeatherB4 (Florida)
Posts: 51
Posted:
Brian, assuming you live in a HOA, if you neighbor next to you painted their house purple with pink poka dots would that affect your home value...you betcha!!!

Have you sent the poeple that are in violation a letter, then a fine?

I would state in your letter that once one person does something that was not approved it opens the flood gate up for other members thinking its ok. Also once the neighborhood has many people not following the bylaws, ccr's, and acb it's a direct reflextion on the way the HOA is run. That decreases your home value.

Good job trying to nip this in the bud before it gets out of hand!!!
AngelaG6 (Georgia)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Hello BrianB:

Thank you for replying and I do believe that there are other factors that affect property values but I also believe that if the overall look of the homes in a neighborhood are neutral in tone and you have a few homes that are have painted their homes in pink, or bright yellow etc. that it could possibly turn potential buyers off.

I am not so much wanting to use language to scold adults in my letter but I am sure that there is some literature out there that addresses the thought process around putting certain restrictions (if you will) in the covenants of a community and I am hoping that someone will be able to guide me to a resource in order that I am able to piggy back on facts in my letter.

Thank you.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Heather and Angela

Do you have data to back your claims that property values are impacted by paint color?
Please show your work.
AngelaG6 (Georgia)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Thank you Heather for your input. It's a bit of a sticky situation, one has been sent a violation letter and the other two have not. And, you are right no matter what happens eventually people will look at the Board for their governance over HOA matters and it is expected that we enforce our covenants. I just want to get some facts on why uniformity has always been part of the covenants of a community.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Angela:

It would seem to me you don't need to convince the owners rather you need to inform them there are approved colors for the exterior of their homes and they are required to request approval before they paint. And then go through the possible fines and penalties if they violate this policy along with any other policies in force on the property.

A simple newsletter to make them aware of the requirements.

As to proof suggesting uniformity protects property values I would offer common sense. Just as opinions don't create myths.

Angela you can either act now or deal with this issue when some owner makes alterations to their property that you can't live with and then try to convince a judge this violation should be enforced when you failed to enforce previous violations. Tough to sell that one IMO.
DanielH1 (California)
Posts: 482
Posted:
I would emphasize the benefits and reliability of architectural approval.

For example:

"Did you know that doing work without architectural approval could cost you $10,000 or even make you homeless?"

"Architectural approval is fast, easy and free ... but can only be obtained before you change the exterior of your home."

"If you change your exterior with architectural approval, you can rest assured that you were always approved and that approval can never be taken away."

"If you change your exterior WITHOUT architectural approval, be aware that the HOA can come along at ANY TIME, even years later, and force you to repaint your home at YOUR EXPENSE. You can be subject to on-going fines, late fees, legal fees and, in some cases, your home could be foreclosed on and sold without your consent. All because you didn't bother to get an approval."

"Are you dumb enough to lose your home because of a piece of paper?"

"Are you dumb enough to paint your house without approval from the HOA?"

DorothyO (Washington)
Posts: 293
Posted:
Angela,
Jon is right on. Listen there are three, possibly four things you need. The CC&R's, Bylaws, Enforcement Procedures, and any Resolutions that clarify and complement, but don't alter, the original intent of the CC&R's. Well five. The steel, courage and belief to do what it takes to honor these governing documents and maintain the integrity of your Association. I don't know how many homeowners are in your neighborhood. But I would still do the following: Make a package of the CC&R's, Bylaws, Enforcement Procedure, Resolutions. Attach a cover letter expressing something along these lines.

"To All Pleasantville Homeowners:

Every one of us bought our houses in this lovely neighborhood fully aware of its nature as a restricted community. Every one of us signed on for these restrictions precisely because we believed it is these very covenants that made the community what it is - what we liked about it.

Now, we see these restrictions being chipped away through willful disregard and personal abdication of responsibility to the community as a whole. We have two choices. We either dissolve the Association, or we enforce the covenants evenly for and against all owners. Indeed, it is the Board's legal obligation to do so. If there is interest in dissolving the association please express your concerns to the Board. If there is enough response in this direction a Special Meeting will be held to go over what this means.

While these covenants were written by someone else, they are lived by us. If we want them changed, we can do that. As a community. In the meantime, please read carefully your CC&R's. If you are in violation of any of these covenants, we advise you to bring your property into compliance to prevent receiving a violation notice and possible fines. If you are unsure, please contact one of your Board officers. If you have any concerns or questions, please do not hesitate to call any Board officer. Thank you for your cooperation.

Sincerely,
The Board"

Something like that.

DorothyO (Washington)
Posts: 293
Posted:
Oops, Dorothy here again. And then send the whole package!
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Angela:

JonD has an awesome post and is absolutely right on everything especially with the statement he makes here:

Quote:
Posted By JonD1 on 02/09/2011 1:30 PM
Angela:
Angela you can either act now or deal with this issue when some owner makes alterations to their property that you can't live with and then try to convince a judge this violation should be enforced when you failed to enforce previous violations. Tough to sell that one IMO.


If you do not enforce now it will be very difficult down the road.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
A couple of homeowners have painted their homes outside of the color scheme of the neighborhood .......in violation with a fence that has been installed.


I really hate home owners associations. LOL.
AngelaG6 (Georgia)
Posts: 8
Posted:
DorothyO:

Thank you very much, your suggestions are very helpful!
JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posted:
BrianB -

To be fair, the "data issue" you raise actually cuts both ways. While the raw data may or may not exist, it's unlikely that it's been collected and analyzed in any meaningful way.

Therefore in such an absence, it is equally non-evidence based to state that paint colors/unformity EITHER DOES or DOESN'T adversely affect property values. Your challenge to the original poster to show the data could equally be applied to your position.

Given data void, it's not unreasonable to presume that there's a 50% probability of such a cause and effect relationship.

One could argue that the probability percentages are different, but not on any factual basis - so applying the concept of "by chance alone" in a mi-modal outcome definition, 50% is the correct assumption in the absence of data to show differently.

Then the argument really becomes, "Is a 50% probability of adverse effects on property values an acceptable risk?"
HeatherB4 (Florida)
Posts: 51
Posted:
Again... you are missing the point.

What determines home value?

A homebuyer.

If a potental homebuyer goes into the neighborhood and sees that nothing is being kept up and owners just do what they want, that buyer will look for another home in a different community. Therefor, no sale.

I don't have to justify my answer with the comment to find it in writing. If you want to prove me wrong, ask your neighbors to paint there houses all kinds of crazy colors and when the home value in your neighborhood stays the same or increases, I will eat a rubber boot and get on this forum and say I am wrong. Until then, Where is your proof?

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
The person making the claim needs to supply evidence.

I never claimed that uniformity affects housing/property value. Others did. All I asked was for them to back up their claim with data.

If I say that flying reindeer exist, I need to prove it. It is not up to others to prove that they do not exist.

JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posted:
Brian - True, UNLESS you state that flying reindeer do not exist - which is the position you took in your first response on this thread by calling it a "myth".

Once you state your position on non-existence, it is just as much a claim (demanding "proof") as those who would make the claim of existence.
HeatherB4 (Florida)
Posts: 51
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BrianB on 02/10/2011 12:43 PM

flying reindeer exist, I need to prove it.


Yes they do, Brian!!! Along with talking bunnies, singing trees, and good property Managers.

Once you get proof of all four, again, I will eat a rubber boot!!!
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnO6 on 02/10/2011 1:27 PM
Brian - True, UNLESS you state that flying reindeer do not exist - which is the position you took in your first response on this thread by calling it a "myth".

Once you state your position on non-existence, it is just as much a claim (demanding "proof") as those who would make the claim of existence.

Point taken, I did call it a myth. And, despite the fact that the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and Thor are all myths, I can concede that although I don't need to prove Santa can't exist, I should offer something to the data pool on house color and property values.

How's this:

In 1998, my house property was valued at $178,000. I painted my house a non-standard color, different than my neighbors. That same year, two of my neighbors also painted their houses non standard colors (outside the color scheme the HOA would have desired). Three houses in a block of 12, out of an HOA of 40. In 1999, my property value was $180,000. And, looking at the county tax records, one of my neighbor's house values (painted) rose, the other stayed the same. One might conclude that painting had little to no real effect (two slightly positive and a neutral?) on the property values of the homes. I also checked the records for 6 of the unpainted homes in the block, and they also exhibited either a slight rise or no change.

The best I can conclude is that the painting had little to no effect, and certainly not a detrimental effect, on the value.
HeatherB4 (Florida)
Posts: 51
Posted:
I am glad I dont live in your neighborhood. I would be pissed, to say the least.

I bought into a community, and so did others, so that sort of thing did not happen.

Again we get back to the pink house with poka dots...If your neighbor said that was what he was going to paint it, what is to stop him? He would just bring to the judge that "everyone else got to paint it what they wanted to." and your wonderful neighbor would have a wonderful pink with poka dots painted house.

Can I ask yu something? Would you buy a house next to the pink and poka dot house? I wouldnt...

Would you buy a house next to a house with a truck up on blocks? I wouldn't.

Would you buy a house next to a house with 246 dogs in the back yard? I wouldn't.

Would you buy a house next to a house that has 8 ft grass? I did at one point, and wont do it again.

"Complacency breeds failure"

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Heather, I bought into a community that had no board that could enforce house paint rules. per the CC&R's, if any exterior alterations were "completed before a suit to enjoin the progress was brought before the board, the alterations were automatically allowed".

as for your questions:

I would have to answer yes to most of them, except maybe the 246 dogs. that seems an exaggeration, and if not, I would say that I wouldn't likely buy there. But then again, we volunteer at a local rescue, so being around 40 to 50 dogs every weekend is kind of norming.

But, I bought my current house knowing that my next door neighbor has a '57 Chevy up on blocks. great neighbor, just this weekend he drove up and dropped off a half a cord of cut firewood, just because he had it. Helped me build a fence, gives me eggs, helped me cut a dead tree down my first spring so it wouldn't fall. I don't mind the '57 and the blocks at all.

I would buy a house next to a pink/polka dot house. What do I care? I have lived next to red homes, yellow homes, and blue homes, as well as tan and beige and dinge and cream and caramel latte. What my neighbor paints his house is his choice, and has no impact or bearing on my life. No matter what color he chose, or colors, I would learn to enjoy it for the uniqueness, the color, the splash, or the impact. I lived next to a guy for 6 years who built one side of his house out of old bottles. Ugly? yeah. Butt ugly. But unique, and a topic of conversation for everyone. We enjoyed it. Even helped him find bottles.

8 foot grass? Probably the wrong question to ask me: I currently live in the desert, so 2 inch grass isn't even an option, so how about 8 foot scrub oaks and wild flowers? In that case, sure! I love nature. I hate manicured astroturf lawns. I love the birds at my feeders and quail in my yard, I love spotting their nests in the trees around my place and the neighbors. I lived next door to a prairie in Kansas for a year, and I loved the 5 foot grass for a backyard. It was superb, to sit on the roof and watch the grass ripple in the wind.

I am probably not the right guy to ask these questions of. I don't care for uniformity and conformity, and cookie cutter houses all in a row, with manicured putting greens and rules about porch light wattage and what brand of tree bark you can use for mulch and how many minutes per day my garage door can be open. I chose both my HOA's with care and caution, and a knowledge of that the rules were acceptable to me.

DorothyO (Washington)
Posts: 293
Posted:
Brian,Brian,Brian,
This line was so great I had to see it all over again,

"I chose both my HOA's with care and caution, and a knowledge of that the rules were acceptable to me."

I have spent the last week fussing, and fussing is a pretty word for the ugliness that occurred, with homeowners who did not think a certain covenant should be enforced uniformly. Provocative words like, "harassment," "invalid," police state," were spit at me. All over asking someone to store their trashcan out of sight, one of the simpler covenants to understand. I find myself saying with astonishment, "But you moved here knowing these covenants?" It is the simplest of truths to be so seemingly obscure to an alarming number of these homeowners.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
It seems pointless to me to debate whether paint color might affect property values.

Especially when three houses being painted on one block has now been offered as proof. Hardly worth the effort to post.

Tough to change the views of some and in my opinion not worth my time.

If you wish to live under your own set of rules as to the apperance of your home then don't buy into an HOA.

Then you can hang your laundry on the front lawn, pull the engine out of your 25 year old car on the lawn, let your kids and animals run wild, leave your trash cans (if you are so inclined to use them) out, store your friend's boat for the Winter and property values be damned.

We have all driven through such neighborhoods some notice while others might feel right at home.

Myself I like to be able to take pride in where I live. Not fond of junk collectors, animal collectors, or folks that like to live to the beat of their own drum or have others follow their views of what is right, correct or might affect the values of my home. When of course you bought into an HOA.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JonD1 on 02/10/2011 8:14 PM
It seems pointless to me to debate whether paint color might affect property values.

Especially when three houses being painted on one block has now been offered as proof. Hardly worth the effort to post.

Myself I like to be able to take pride in where I live. Not fond of junk collectors, animal collectors, or folks that like to live to the beat of their own drum or have others follow their views of what is right, correct or might affect the values of my home. When of course you bought into an HOA.

1) well, at least I offered some verifiable data to support my 'contention'.
2) You say 'i like to be able to take pride' as if it is implied that others do not, or that those who value conformity are better than those who don't. I for one take great pride in where I live, probably much like you. I take pride in where I live. I do not, however, disdain, feel pity, disappointment, or anger for where others live. Perhaps people who like conformity and people who don't simply have pride in different things. Not better, not worse, just different.
RobW (California)
Posts: 279
Posted:
Interesting debate. I think the essence of the matter has nothing to do with paint colors, or even the "freedom" to paint your house whatever color you choose. Instead, it has to do with a covenant the members of the community have freely entered into with one another, the trust the community must have in its leadership to safeguard the covenant, and the responsibility the leadership has to its members to honor the covenant. If any of those connecting rods break, the community breaks.

Rob

JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BrianB on 02/10/2011 10:13 PM
Posted By JonD1 on 02/10/2011 8:14 PM
It seems pointless to me to debate whether paint color might affect property values.

Especially when three houses being painted on one block has now been offered as proof. Hardly worth the effort to post.

Myself I like to be able to take pride in where I live. Not fond of junk collectors, animal collectors, or folks that like to live to the beat of their own drum or have others follow their views of what is right, correct or might affect the values of my home. When of course you bought into an HOA.


1) well, at least I offered some verifiable data to support my 'contention'.
2) You say 'i like to be able to take pride' as if it is implied that others do not, or that those who value conformity are better than those who don't. I for one take great pride in where I live, probably much like you. I take pride in where I live. I do not, however, disdain, feel pity, disappointment, or anger for where others live. Perhaps people who like conformity and people who don't simply have pride in different things. Not better, not worse, just different.

Seems to me your only objective is to prolong this useless debate.

Did you not understand the concept of HOA ownership?

IMO you should not have purchased property in an HOA then you need not search for verifiable date as to your point of view.

And if you require "different" pride then move into a single ownership form of property real simple.

DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Uniformity, affecting property values? Well I've read some posters using EXTREME examples to make the point. A problem seems to arise when one person/group imposes their belief of what should be 'uniform'. What bothers one person doesn't necessarily bother another. My house started as the same color as another in the subdivision but theirs gets full sun so the color faded. No peeling of paint or anything but it is still no longer 'uniform'. I guess the HOA should have listed colors that don't fade too. I've seen the subdivisions with row upon row of cookie cutter homes with same color, style etc and they are ugly to me, but what someone else likes. HOA's can prevent extremes so I suppose that is a good thing, but I'm not falling for scare tactics either. Even if I have a house that is purple with pink polka dots next to me I could care less because I am not selling, maybe my heirs might care. Since the property values line is being used to justify action in this HOA, I guess that means the major concern for people who buy into a HOA is selling to get out of the HOA if they are worried about property values. Personally, my main concern is living my life and hopefully have others living around me that I can get along with while I do that.
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Dorothy, you told your neighbour "But you moved here knowing these covenants?". That isn't necessarily the case. I say that because you are assuming they knew. So many times I've seen that people buying in HOA's DON'T know the covenants, and sometimes DON'T even know there were. No your problem, but it could be a mistake stating something like that to your neighbour if you are operating on the assumption everyone knows there are rules, or that everyone who knows there are rules has actually read the rules and interprets them the same way. I'd say the majority in my subdivision had no concept of the extent of the rules other than some very vague statements from the developer's sales staff about there being a clubhouse and a small monthly fee.
DorothyO (Washington)
Posts: 293
Posted:
DJ, in the state of Washington the CC&R's and Bylaws are attached to the property. There is no they CAN'T know they are moving into a restricted community. In fact, certainly since I have been President, real estate agent or homeowner that lists a house for sale in the neighborhood, gets a bright, shiny new folder of all our governing documents. Now, the issue of whether they have actually read them is certainly true. This makes my exclamation even more stark. Anyone who moves into a restricted community without reading the covenants is a complete idiot, for they have entered into a legal, and binding contract without knowing what it says. And they are still responsible. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking the law. This is what never ceases to amaze and perplex me. I feel like I am living in an adult kindergarten.

Rob says is clearly, "Instead, it has to do with a covenant the members of the community have freely entered into with one another, the trust the community must have in its leadership to safeguard the covenant, and the responsibility the leadership has to its members to honor the covenant. If any of those connecting rods break, the community breaks."

DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Dorothy, the ccrs are registered against properties here as well but that doesn't mean people have a clue about them or understand them let alone have read them. I don't think being an idiot is isolated to someone moving into a restricted community not reading their docs, I'd say anyone who doesn't read all the documents associated with any home purchase is an idiot. Then again look how many homeowners are under water because they didn't understand their mortgage documents let alone the ccrs!

The HOA that I am embedded in/surrounded by doesn't seem to enforce the CCR's so I guess that also makes those who accepted the role idiots.
DorothyO (Washington)
Posts: 293
Posted:
DJ1
Excellent point! Perhaps it is I who plays the fool for trying to do the job I was elected to do. And you're right. I have to believe a alarming number of the homeowners somehow do not see these documents they signed as legal contracts, hence, have not made the effort to understand them. It's so obvious when a homeowner is going off about something when they keep referring to the Bylaws as the Covenants, or uses pre-amendment language. Perhaps I need to step off this insane train and the let the chips fall where they may. Do I think overnight cars on blocks will appear, or a kennel, or 10X12 metal sheds in the back yards, or recreational vehicles blocking the sun, or polka-dotted houses, thereby, affecting my property value (and I am in the camp that believes these things do)? No, it'll take a few years, or maybe only a summer, once someone decides no one is enforcing the no recreational vehicle rule, so bye-bye $100 dry-storage fee. Do I want to take the risk or take the crap? I will study on this further after my Friday night martini!
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Dorothy, keep up the good fight! Despite my beliefs or disbeliefs in whether paint color impacts property value, I DO believe that people should be held accountable for the contracts they signed. Even in my first post/answer to the topic, I spoke to that concept as an idea for the reminder/letter.

Jon, my intent isn't to prolong a debate. I was called (rightly by John06) to provide some data, and I responded. I mischose the word "myth" in my original post, and John06 was right, I needed to do as I said others should. And honestly, I agree with you.. the debate is likely pointless, as there is probably no data to prove that paint colors impact property values one way or another. However, I called it a myth, I was in turned called for that word choice, and I responded.

As for HOA living, I have lived in two HOA's, and in both cases, I carefully chose to live in HOA's that had regulations I could abide within. My current one does not regulate house colors, the previous one regulated them if someone complained within a set time frame. I could live with both sets of rules, and did so. I found HOA's that met my needs and rules that I could follow. I have avoided buying in HOA's that had rules I felt were too restrictive, or that governed things I do not believe an HOA should govern. It's the HOA's right to make rules, it is my right to buy or not buy within that HOA. Once I agree, then it is my responsibility to follow the rules, and the HOA's responsibility to enforce them. You won't hear arguements on that from me.

In over 16 years of HOA living, I am happy to say I have never been found to be in violation of a single HOA rule.

DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Brian, I have seen the statement from time to time that when a person buys into a HOA they agreed to abide by the rules. Not only do they do that, but they are also agreeing to the imposition of any future rule that they might not agree with. It is such an open ended situation. So basically anyone buying into a HOA is agreeing to abide by anything that is voted on by the majority. Kind of difficult to anticipate what rule may or may not later be brought in! People should read what they are signing but also recognize there is essentially a blank page at the end of the CCR's that you are agreeing can be filled in with anything.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
I agree with your statement DJ, if I sprinkle "properly voted", "per the bylaws", etc. throughout it. When I signed the contract to enter the HOA, I agreed to abide by the rules, and so did the HOA board and other members. As long as we make any future changes legally, properly, and by the by-laws, then I will either live with them, or sell and move on.

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