President and Treasurer in the same house

Started by MaryK6 • 24 replies • 2116 views

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MaryK6 (Tennessee)
Posts: 6

Posted:

I'm new to our BOD and the first order of business is finding a replacement for our current treasurer. She no longer lives in the neighborhood but still owns the home. She is ready to leave but we are struggling to find a volunteer to replace her. We have one canidate that the current President says he is "not comfortable with" but will not tell us why and another canidate that is the President's wife. And that I am "not comfortable with." I'm looking at this like the homeowners are the "shareholders" and I'm pretty sure this would not go on within a public company. We do not have anything that states they cannot be in the same household but I am wondering what other associations deem appropriate in this matter. Am I looking at this the wrong way?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Mary,

Unless your documents require the position of Treasurer to be a Board member, I would suggest one of the following compromises:

1. Assign the members wife to Treasurer and the other person to the Board (replacing the one who is leaving). That way, the one lot will not have two votes on the Board.

2. Agree not to go with either candidate and find a new one. This might mean knocking on doors to find some.

3. Leave the current person in the Treasures position until the next election.

Our documents, like yours, do not prohibit such things. However, our Boards have shyed away from the situation for the same reasons you have. It just doesn't pass the common sense test. Matter of fact, when no one wanted to be Secretary and my wife volunteered, the Board appointed her secretary but not into the vacant seat on the Board. Therefore, she performes the duties of Secretary but has zero vote on any issues before the Board.

Hope this helps,

Tim

JamesG (Connecticut)
Posts: 83

Posted:

All qualified candidates should be considered by the full Board. The Board must vote on who they want for an officer after each director is given an opportunity to voice their opinion. This is not the President's decision alone.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Hi Mary:

There have been other associations who did not have enough volunteers who have utilized both husband and wife teams. Sometimes this is OK … other times there have been issues depending on the individual moral and ethic standards. However, like you it would not be something I also would feel comfortable having within my HOA if at all possible. It also would depend on what your state statutes and governing documents allow … so be sure to check all regulations.

The Board needs to consider both candidates unless the President is willing to give a very good answer as to why he is “not comfortable” with one of the individuals. If he knows this individual has been involved in some type of shady dealings that could hurt the HOA then he has a duty to come forth to the Board with the information to protect HOA assets. If it is just a personality conflict, then he needs to make an effort to pull everyone together as a team and essentially make it work for the benefit of your HOA. It also could be he has no issues with this individual and is just making that statement in order to have his wife placed into the position.

Ultimately it will come down to a vote of all Board members and the President is just one vote, so everyone else on the Board needs to fully consider the options and vote as they determine is in the best interest of the HOA. Look at all sides of the issue ...

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Mary:

I am always amazed at how people miss the big picture in favor of a rather unimportant issue.

IMO what type of job is being done by the current members of the Board is job #1.

Not who is related to who.

How long has the President served?
How long have you served?

In your time on the Board what kind of job do you think the President is doing?

Do they make rational thought our decisions?
Do they seem to act in a responsible manner beneficial to your community?

And as they serve as President I would consider the possibility they have some knowledge you might NOT have in understanding who could best serve as Treasurer. Perhaps that knowledge would best not be made public.

Sometimes someone wanting the job does not qualify them to do the job. And IMO Treasurer in ost cases requires the second largest amount of effort on many Boards.

My bottom line is what kind of job they do in their positions.

Many documents do not prohibit a husband/wife combination from the same unit serving on the Board. In some cases this may be fine and in other cases this might be problematic.

Your job as a Board member along with the other members of the Board is to determine which is the case on your property.

I would also make the comment you have a Board President suggesting to you they are not comforatble with candidate #1 serving as Treasurer. How do you think that might fly with the Board President if the Board now places candidate #1 in that very positiion?

Just maybe there might be a valid reason the President does not want this candidate to serve.

MaryK6 (Tennessee)
Posts: 6

Posted:

Currently neither the President or the Treasurer are on the BOD. The President has the option but has opted not to be. I am just starting to learn how things have been run in the last 3 years that this individual has been President and while he has kept things floating I have some concerns:

All projects have been at his suggestion and the BOD never approved the projects/budgets. They just let him go along with it
because they were too busy to meet. Lazy BOD I agree but it has created an individual that does not listen to his homeowners and
his own agenda. We are going to work on that together.

I forced the first meeting of the BOD and the Officers...the first meeting EVER.

During that meeting it was discovered that the President and the Treasurer have the signing power of the checkbook and the
President wants to keep it that way. We have nothing that states who should but I am positive both signers should not be in the
same house.

So, do I think the current Preseident is doing a good job. No. Can I get the other BOD's to vote him out and find a new one. Not likely. We are really struggling to get anyone interested in serving. One BOD is the President's best friend and the other is only serving until we find a replacement for her. Their way of managing this over the last 3 years has been "at least i'm doing something".

Right or wrong, I was just looking for some clarity on the Treasurer position. I really appreciate all of your feedback and will discuss with the other BOD's. I think the best thing to do is keep looking.

Thanks Everyone!

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Hi Mary:

Do two officers need to sign all checks? This is something I recommend as it eliminates one person being able to do anything shady with regards to HOA money. However, I recommend DO NOT have two individuals from the same household have the ability to sign as then there would be no double check system regarding money.

My recommendation if the Board appoints the President's wife to Treasurer position would be to NOT have related parties both be signator's on the checking account. Instead have the President and other board/officers able to sign. This could appear unethical to the membership and potentially cause great discontent.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaryK6 on 01/25/2011 7:58 AM
Currently neither the President or the Treasurer are on the BOD. The President has the option but has opted not to be.

I need an explanation. How can this statement be true? what am i missing that would allow someone not on the board of directors to be the president (and or treasurer). I am not being nasty, I just cannot at this time envision how this happens in an HOA. Am I not thinking of some system of governance?

Also, how is it feasible that two people not on the board of directors have access and control of the monetary accounts?

How did these people get elected? How do you elect your BOD? Why does your BOD allow this? WHat do your by-laws say?

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Brian ... some HOA's have a Board and separate Officers. My governing documents allow a Board member to also serve as an Officer, but they do not have to be an Officer.

They are in essence two separate entities ours allows 3 Board Members and 3 Officer positions so we can have up to 6 people or less if a Board member(s) is also an officer.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Posted By MaryK6 on 01/25/2011 7:58 AM
Currently neither the President or the Treasurer are on the BOD. The President has the option but has opted not to be. I am just starting to learn how things have been run in the last 3 years that this individual has been President and while he has kept things floating I have some concerns:

All projects have been at his suggestion and the BOD never approved the projects/budgets. They just let him go along with it
because they were too busy to meet. Lazy BOD I agree but it has created an individual that does not listen to his homeowners and
his own agenda. We are going to work on that together.

I forced the first meeting of the BOD and the Officers...the first meeting EVER.

During that meeting it was discovered that the President and the Treasurer have the signing power of the checkbook and the
President wants to keep it that way. We have nothing that states who should but I am positive both signers should not be in the
same house.

So, do I think the current Preseident is doing a good job. No. Can I get the other BOD's to vote him out and find a new one. Not likely. We are really struggling to get anyone interested in serving. One BOD is the President's best friend and the other is only serving until we find a replacement for her. Their way of managing this over the last 3 years has been "at least i'm doing something".

Right or wrong, I was just looking for some clarity on the Treasurer position. I really appreciate all of your feedback and will discuss with the other BOD's. I think the best thing to do is keep looking.

Thanks Everyone!

I just have to wonder what exactly would you have done if your were in the President's role. Seems at least part of the problem is the remaining members of the Board. They seem to have allowed this system to be put in place without any regard or concern.

So now you have a President who has been allowed to operate as a one man show and you have decided that does not work for you. Seems it has been working for the rest of the Board and property owners.

As to your statement it was discovered the President and Treasurer have signing rights on your accounts was that not known by the rest of the Board and allowed?
If the Board hasn't got the time to meet who would you prefer sign? Someone uninvolved in any way.

And while you certainly have the right to your opinion regarding who should be signing your checks it does not serve as the basis or foundation for Board policy or standards of operation. That would be found in your documents not your opinions.

Sometimes in actual day to day operation you have to do what needs to be done somehow, someway. To now after 3 years decide the President and his wife should no longer be allowed to sign checks but rather another member of the Board who sees no need to do more than nothing well that IMO would cause MORE problems.

So your opinion is he is not doing a decent job. Are you willing to assume his position? Do you understand what that would actaully require? Do you have the time? Knowledge?????? Willingness to take this on? Because it sounds like you will be on your own.

That would of course include both the President's job and the Treasurer's job.

And finally as to who signs checks. Here in NY, I'm not sure how it works around the country in most cases banks don't bother to verify or confirm who has signed the checks one, two, three or four.

Who signs does not matter nor how many banks simply don't monitor that. So perhaps in reality the fact the Treasurer and President are signing checks might not matter in the least.

I would guess your Board and property have more serious issues to deal with. And before you decide who is at fault and responsible for what you have determined is improper behavior I would suggest you get to know the operations of the Board, the documents under which your property operates, and those that are involved on the Board and on the property. You MAY jump to conclusions that you may find in the end were not accurate.

Good luck

MaryK6 (Tennessee)
Posts: 6

Posted:

Right Janet. That is exactly how our HOA is set up.

MaryK6 (Tennessee)
Posts: 6

Posted:

Currently only one signature is needed and the by-laws do not specify who should be the signer. We have discussed the addition of a 2nd signature and I hope we will move in that direction. When we discussed it earlier with the Officers and BOD they thought it was a good idea to make the President and Treasuer the signer's because it would be easier to get things done. But I again had issue with that since the proposed Treasurer was the President's wife. I agree with you if we had some other Board member be a signer as well and require two signatures it would take the stickiness out of the situation. This is a good plan if we cannot find anyone else willing to take on the position. Thanks for your help!

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

A Finance Committee would go over every expenditure and verify that all transactions come from a motion or budget directed expsnse account. Just two more sets of eyes on the books going over everything at each quarter would help ease your mind.

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Susan this Board has not even held meeting according to the OP.

How then might they put together a finance committe???????

Sounds like the President and his wife the Treasurer have been holding down the fort while everyone else sits back and does nothing. So now would be the time to question their actions and honesty and work against them when possible.

Yes, that sounds about right. Impose your sense of what is right and wrong on the only two people doing anything.

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

FOR THEIR OWN PROTECTION,(the pres. and wife treasurer) I would advise that there be some other set(s) of eyes on this situation.

The original OP is concerned, - there's one person. I am sure she could find another person. This Finance committee is not adversarial to the treasurer, but rather as a support.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Susan:

The Board hasn't bothered to meet. This suggests to me both the Board AND the other property owners aren't real interested. Who might then take extra resposibility on?

And while I agree in a perfect world it would be best for others to have a role in overseeing the operations seems like this property lacks options.

And on a human nature level you now have a new member of the Board questioning how and why the Board President and his wife who serves as Treasurer do their jobs. Holding the opinion they should not be permitted to do what needed to be done and I might add done with the at least the suggested approval of the remaining Board members.

Seems many people find fault and then offer how they think things should be. When you have just two active members tough to spread any responsibility very far.

MaryK6 (Tennessee)
Posts: 6

Posted:

JonD,

I came to this forum looking for some sound unbiased advice based on the situation I am in. I am always open to others opinions and suggestions but never should it turn in to a personal attack on the individual seeking help. Especially since you continue to ignore the actual post and twist it in to something you can attack about.

So before you continue to question my ethics and what I am trying to do to get our hoa back on track please make sure you have the facts straight. The wife is Not currently the treasurer.

I appreciate all the advice from the other members. I hope I can continue coming to this forum without being treated the way jons posts are going.

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

I think Jon was admonishing me - but no matter.
I have broad shoulders.

Allowing an HOA to be run by a husband/wife team in control of the checkbook, with no oversight is not a good idea - for them or for the Members.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SusanW1 on 01/28/2011 10:06 AM
I think Jon was admonishing me - but no matter.
I have broad shoulders.

Allowing an HOA to be run by a husband/wife team in control of the checkbook, with no oversight is not a good idea - for them or for the Members.

Susan I am NOT admonishing you I am simply stating that in this situation it would seem you have litte if any participation from the members of the Board or the property owners.

I AGREE with you is this a good situation? NO!

Is this the way any property should run? NO!

What I am saying is if you have NO ONE willing to step up and do something how do you spread the responsibility around? YOU DON'T.

And the OP seems to be concerned about who might now sign checks. IMO that would be way down on the issues that concerned me.

But you have ONE member the President who is dong something and has done something then you have the rest of the folks that have done nothing. But best to find fault with the President. That makes no sense to me.

Crazy as I am I would try to help him do his job. I might offer to support his actions and decisions IF I decided they served the property. I would work to make his job EASIER not more complicated. And IF I determined his actions were servign the property and his wife was willing to help in any capacity I would welcome that help not find fault with it.

I would be after someone else to get involved. But then that's just me.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

"and another canidate that is the President's wife. And that I am "not comfortable with." I'm looking at this like the homeowners are the "shareholders" and I'm pretty sure this would not go on within a public company. We do not have anything that states they cannot be in the same household but I am wondering what other associations deem appropriate in this matter. Am I looking at this the wrong way?"

Mary:

To be brief. You were looking for unbiased opinions does that then mean just those that agree with you?

You state in your first post, I read it, that you have nothing that prohibits the wife from serving as Treasurer in your documents. But you go on to suggest that "you are not comfortable with" so that now sets the standards for your property's operations? Your comfort level.

And your connection to your property being a "public company" and therefore this would not go on is not the basis for any decision making. But you are entitled to your opinion.

I did not question your ethics I questioned your judgment. Your property operates under the documents not under what you beleive or feel goes on with an public entity that has nothing to do with your property. And if the rules of operation do not prohibit this that whatever logic you employee to set things to your way of thinking matters not.

So as I suggested before in my silly little world I would attmept to work with the President and not now try to change things to operate in your method of thinking while perhaps causing even more issues to arise. From what you have described there is already enough to work on.

If the ship is sinking now would not be the time to worry about lining up the deck chairs.

You have one person willing to do most of the work. The rest of the Board has allowed that without question. But lets do are best to question his behavior, express our lack of willingness to have his wife serve the property, and set forth standards of behavior that YOU have determined to be proper without support from the documents that govern the operation of your property.

That's not an ethics problem IMO that goes to judgment.

I won't bother to address your suggestion I made threats. Unless of course someone having a view different from you causes you to feel threatened.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

JonD … ENOUGH please …

I will respond to you ONCE, so hopefully you will finally understand in many of your posts you make erroneous and inflammatory ASSUMPTIONS. As you will note above most of us tend to ignore you, but you just do not know when to quit.

Quote:

The Board hasn't bothered to meet. This suggests to me both the Board AND the other property owners aren't real interested. Who might then take extra resposibility on?

Per Mary the board did finally meet once, due to her insistence. It appears she is trying to take on the responsibility of insuring they will have proper meetings and a proper HOA going forward. This is what is important … not your assumption.

Quote:

And while I agree in a perfect world it would be best for others to have a role in overseeing the operations seems like this property lacks options.

This property has all the options in the world they desire, as long as there are individuals like Mary who will put forth the effort to insure future success. This is what is important for their future, for everyone to be involved. It is also important for us and HOA’s to encourage that success … not tear it down with inflammatory statements.

Quote:

And on a human nature level you now have a new member of the Board questioning how and why the Board President and his wife who serves as Treasurer do their jobs. Holding the opinion they should not be permitted to do what needed to be done and I might add done with the at least the suggested approval of the remaining Board members.

The Board President’s wife does not serve as Treasurer. She and one other individual have both agreed to take on the responsibility, if so chosen. Everyone who starts a thread will be posting their opinion/question and it is not your place to twist it around to what you assume their opinion consists. All you do is inflame their potential anger and potentially make their anger and situation worse.

Quote:

Seems many people find fault and then offer how they think things should be. When you have just two active members tough to spread any responsibility very far.

You assume two active members? From what Mary has stated there is Mary, the President, President’s wife, other potential treasurer candidate, and any others she did not mention. As far as we are concerned they could have numerous “active members” not mentioned. If people find fault in their HOA … “so what” it is their opinion. Many of us ignore what they find fault with and try to assist on a POSITIVE note. Most of us would like to see issues that start out negative … end positive. You on the other hand appear to want to turn posts into inflammatory assumption gripe fests.

In the future if you have a concern you should try to ask a nice polite question such as, “May I ask why do you feel …”. And please avoid twisting what someone has written to suit what you think/assume they have stated. Please let the poster explain …

Many individuals who start threads are doing so because they have a problem or concern they have recently encountered. Sometimes they are angry and may make statements such as some I have seen recently describing their board as “storm troopers”, “rogue”, etc. Everyone needs to understand (especially on first posting) that they are just venting their anger and frustration. Let’s all try to turn those situations around by ignoring the “venting” and put individuals on track to a positive feeling and outcome. This then will hopefully assist them and their HOA towards a positive mutual harmony instead of fueling continued resentment or anger.

Quote:

Posted By SusanW1 on 01/28/2011 10:06 AM
I think Jon was admonishing me - but no matter.
I have broad shoulders.

Susan … you are AWESOME … I for one was able to read between the lines and know you were taking Mary’s hurt regarding Jon’s posts onto your shoulders. Mary is new to our group and it is unfortunate that her first postings have encountered this experience. Hopefully, we all will be mindful in the future of an individual’s feelings.

Mary … I apologize for the false assumptions made and hope you will not think badly about this site and continue your hard work within your HOA. I for one think you will be GREAT!!!

Jon … I think deep down you know what you owe both Susan and especially Mary …

Now let’s all make up … we are all one Big HOA Family.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Janet:

I do not wish to waste any of my time addressing your last post.

It simply serves no constructive purpose.

I find amusing your NEED to lecture me and impose YOUR views of how things should be handled and "proper" behavior in your world.

You even go so far as to "script" my future handling of posting on this site.

"In the future if you have a concern you should try to ask a nice polite question such as, “May I ask why do you feel …”. "

While I view this comment as a joke (not the funny kind) you are obviously quite serious. That ia amazing to me.

I have read many if not all of your posts. Lots of words, providing links to state regulations and offering opinions on just about EVERY topic presented. I have to ask just where have you acquired some much knowledge?

Do you currently serve on a Board for an HOA?
For what period of time?
Have you held any officer's positions?

In many of your posts you offer lots of quantity but not much quality. Such was the case with this last post.

You speak in general terms with oberservations based on what? Your time serving on some Board?

IMO some of your posts read like that of a high school student required to write a book report of a certain lenght without actually having read the book. Lots of words, general terms but in the end not much of anything really useful.

And one final comment I don't come here to be lectured by you or anyone else. Save that for someone who might desire your style of personal guidance. I do not.

"Jon...deep down I think you know what you owe Susan and Mary."

Janet just who do you think you are dealing with????? Some mindless pawn waiting for your direction?????

You are sadly mistaken.................................

MaryK6 (Tennessee)
Posts: 6

Posted:

Thank you Janet and Susan. I look forward to your feedback on any future issues I may have. I will just have to learn to ignore the users trolling on this site since I did really get some constructive/good advice from almost everyone here (here is a shocker...even the ones that did not agree with me). I have discussed with the other 2 board members and we feel we are now heading in a good direction and will get the right person in to the Treasurer role soon.

Thanks again for trying to help with a situation that was way out of control. I hope that the administrators of the website/forum see the kind of harm that users like JonD can cause and provide a way to report them if the abuse continues. Maybe there is already a way to do that. I will have to check in to it. Thanks goodness we only have to deal with him virtually!

Have a fantastic day!

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

I would think in addition to concerns regarding both president and treasurer residing in the same house and being related, there should also be a concern from the other homeowners that one property would effectively receive more votes and representation then the others.

While every property owner who is also a board member would have one vote, these people give their property two votes, diluting the remainder.

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