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TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
In a different thread (click to see) Sam suggested a method of governing by informational voting rights.

I do not fully understand what he is proposing and the previous thread was getting so messy it was difficult to follow. Therefore, I've started this one.

Sam -

You made the comment "I promise you...if your Community was to initiate my idea? Giving every single Home Owner 'Informational Voting Rights Using the Internet'? It would take less than one year for participation to shoot way up past just one or two home owners participating on that site!"

Please elaborate and, for discussion purposes, lets use my current Association and the methods they are using to demonstrate how I could benefit from your idea.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
My Association offers the following ways members can participate and they are free or inexpensive:

Open Board meetings - anyone may attend
Meetings are announced on our website and in our newsletter

Contact a Board member by e-mail -
E-mail addresses are posted on our website, in our newsletter and on mailings

Contact a Board member by telephone -
Telephone numbers are published in our newsletter

Contact a Board member by U.S. Mail -
Mailing address is on every mailing, in our newsletter, and on our website

Contact a Board member in person - we all live in the community
Although specific addresses are not published in our documents - they can be
gotten and/or just stop one of us in the street.

General Membership Meetings - Open to all
Meetings are announced on our website, in mailings, in our newsletter and
on entrance signs.

Using Website - We have an open forum section
Forums are mentioned in newsletters, clicked from our website, and can be
googled, binged, yahoo - any search engine.

Instituted directed vs. general proxies -
This way the members who can not attend a general meeting can direct the board how to cast a
vote for them (vs. just giving the board an opportunity to vote how the board wants). Proxies
are accepted via mail, in person and by e-mail. Additionally, on issues we believe are a
hot topic for the community we do mailings with self addressed stamped return envelopes.

I would love to have 100% participation in everything by the membership. To date, the max we have gotten was 45%. That is with a resident membership (those living in the home affected by these decisions) of 80%. Matter of fact, we are getting a 90% participation of non-resident members.

Please explain, specifically, how your proposal is different from what we are doing and will overcome membership apathy.

I'm asking this because I would love to implement anything that would increase membership participation and, that I suspect that I am missing something in your posts as it appears my Association is doing more then what you are saying should be done.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RobertR1 on 12/29/2010 8:32 AM
Sam,

You stated: "Please? How very easy and FREE it would be to let every Home Owner in the Country to: "HAVE A SAY IN THEIR HOA"! "

Don't members have a say now? Can't a member contact their board through meetings, telephone, mail, e-mail, in person?

Lets use my Association as an actual discussion point for what you are proposing.
My Association offers the following ways members can participate and they are free or inexpensive:

Open Board meetings - anyone may attend
Meetings are announced on our website and in our newsletter
Contact a Board member by e-mail -
E-mail addresses are posted on our website, in our newsletter and on mailings
Contact a Board member by telephone -
Telephone numbers are published in our newsletter
Contact a Board member by U.S. Mail -
Mailing , etc
***************************************************
Tim, I would concur completely with this post with only minor differences, most HOA's are governed (both good and bad) under your stated conditions. As you know, it seems that the solution to better management is education of the individual homeowners. A Board mandate in my opinion. It is a long hard difficult never ending process but given the attention it deserves and given a competent team and some interested homeowners, trust and confidence can be instilled. Has my association reached that level? Is is better than it was five years ago..........a success in this game and it will be just as hard to keep it on track as it was to get it on track. However a 7000 member association is a different animal and harder decisions must be made, heads will roll and dissent will raise it's ugly head and enemies will be made. Is there any choice? Big or small associations. change must come from within and time has to be considered. It will take months to turn a small association around, it will take years to turn a large association around, I doubt the courts will be enforcing anything, they may render decisions about narrow differences, but they are not going to right the ship in the long run.

Robert,

I agree that the solution is educating the membership. That was how I addressed many issues I discovered and it took over three years for a small community.

Not fully understanding what Sam is proposing but interpreting to be, govern by all - that is to have each and every issue a board currently handles to be decided by the entire membership. I'm hoping Sam, or Sams' friend, can shed some light on what he is proposing.

Since all Associations must also comply with current laws, I'm not positive Sam has looked into all the particulars of what he is proposing. He may have. However, as they say, the devil is in the details.

I'm interested in the details. Then as others have said, will have to look at the potential benefits in a realistic light, comparing specifics to specifics, laws to laws, etc. to see if the idea should be implemented.

Sam is obviously excited about his proposal and is claiming great benefits from it. I for one am willing to learn more if he is willing to share.

Tim

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
From Sam in a different thread but should be in this thread:

Quote:
Posted By SamJ2 on 01/06/2011 8:37 AM
Off Subject...but.....one last post to Clarify my posts about allowing Home Owners to have "Informational Voting Rights" using the Internet from the convenience of their Home Computer 24/7 365 days a year!

Apparently? This idea is so foreign that most of the posters here on this Forum think my idea is beyond grasping............sigh.

I now realize that I should give up trying to explain my idea? Instead? I need to enlist a Brand New Graduate of the CAI Institute........pay him or her to work for a Community using my ideas from DAY ONE!

Setting up a Website/Message Board that is mailed to every single Home Owner, letting them know that everything.....Minutes, CC&Rs, Board Member Names and their Info will be posted in writing on the Message Board.........ALL ISSUES concerning their Community will be posted Daily/Weekly, whereby every single Home Owner gets to give their input in writing on this Message Board.......BUT....most importantly! Every Single Home Owner also gets to VOTE on every single ISSUE! ONLINE! DAILY!

Then? If the Board goes AGAINST the Home Owners on any particular issue? 'That' fact will be posted on the Message Board............and come Election Time? I would think that particular Board Member would BE VOTED OFF THE BOARD!

Then? I can quit trying to explain my idea? I would be able to show everyone? AN EXAMPLE of letting ALL Home Owners who "HAVE A SAY IN THEIR HOA" - 24/7 - 365 Days a Year!

Keep checking HOA1234 Dot Com for New Developments in achieving this very thing! .............Sam


TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Sam,

Let me see if I get your proposal correctly. You are saying:

1. Governing Documents are available to every homeowner
2. Names and contact info of Board members will be available to every homeowner.
3. Issues that the board will be discussing will be posted prior to a board meeting.
4. Members, in the form of a poll or comments, will vote on how the Board should proceed on each and every issue before the Board.
5. The board is not obligated to follow the recommendation of the membership based on the poll/vote

You claim that this will provide a 100% membership participation.

Do I understand this correctly?

Tim
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Sam, Tim and others have asked, now I will too. What are "Informational Voting Rights"? Do you mean letting the homeowners vote on every action of the Board? Not only would you need to change every Associations CC&R's to allow this, you would need to change every State's Corporations Codes.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
As we have not heard from Sam since Stan's departure perhaps there was some connection between the two.

And as we are "guessing" as to his intentions I will comment under the terms declared in these posts.

To suggest each property owner should be given a vote or say in every decision on the property, if that is in fact what Sam or anyone else was suggesting, well IMO that is nonsense.

There is apathy not because people can't be involved it is because they don't desire to be involved. And as listed many properties make many avenues open for owners to take part and most if not all show a dismal rate of participation.

Along with the legal issues already raised inconflicts with existing documents and local and state laws what about the practical affects?

How are the owners kept informed about each and every issue? I have Board members who are lost or uninformed. What role do Do you wish to have those who have no idea of the issue now having a say?

IMO every single decision and issue would move at a snail's pace waiting to hear from ALL property owners.

My guess Sam and others are property owners who are not nor ever have been directly involved in managing their property. And with that viewpoint they see some world in which we all hold hands walking forward acting for the common good. I call that place La La Land.

Every property has them the new and uninformed owners who think THEY should now set the rules of operation. Despite the fact they either can't serve on the Board or are unable to win a position on the Board. Lets do an overhaul and make matters even worse.

Lets be honest do you really want each owner on YOUR property with a direct role in what is done and why? And as many properties are also corporations why is there not ONE that comes to mind where every shareholder sits in on each and every daily decision made? There is IMO good reason.

IMO there was a good reason to give the Board the power to handle day to day affairs and Sam's guarantee participation would improve brings up two questions for me. Do I think it would? My guess NO. And is that REALLY what you would want? And my guess the answer to that would also be NO.

Full participation does not = BETTER

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Unless the HOA documents allow business to be conducted by electronic devices, all this is for naught.

I encourage a simple policy each year, passed by the board, that allows for communication by whatever means (postal pony to Blackberry) but IMHO, casting votes needs to be done the traditional way: at a duly called meeting - in person, designated proxy or by written/returned ballot.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JonD1 on 01/07/2011 5:54 AM

Lets be honest do you really want each owner on YOUR property with a direct role in what is done and why? And as many properties are also corporations why is there not ONE that comes to mind where every shareholder sits in on each and every daily decision made? There is IMO good reason.


Jon,

I would love to have 100% participation. However, I also believe that there are opportunities available for that now.

The only difference I see in what Sam is proposing is to have the issues on a website to see if anyone wishes to comment. However, privacy requirements would prevent things like the actual bids for contracts being posted. Members are certainly entitled to see those bids, but we do not post them on the internet because we have a responsibility to protect that info from non-members and lets face ti, the internet is not as secure as having a face to face.

It has been my experience that the best I can hope for is about 45-50% participation unless we literally go door to door. Sam was making a statement that his method would provide 100% participation. However, providing information to the members and having the members take the time to read, understand and become involved are two different things and the Association can only accomplish one of them.

Tim
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Tim:

Providing information leaves as you say taking the time to read it AND the ability to understand and comprehend that information.

Just one is of little value.

As to providing contract details to property owners in general I would be against that. The contractors have business relationships with the Board NOT the individual property owners. Some of our contractors would not want their prices and contract terms made public where other customers might obtain the details.

Sam's claim this would boost participation to 100% is pie in the sky. Lets face it and to make that claim it suggests at least to me Same has no idea what he is talking about or suggesting.

I prefer to live and operate in the REAL world. And spend time on the important purposes of serving on the Board not looking to drag people in to participate that more than likely have no interest in doing so.

As a Board member my job is to manage the operations of the property not serve as motivation coach to people who can't show an interest in the most valuable asset they have. If they don't get it I accept their role and can live with it.
SamJ2 (Nevada)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JonD1 on 01/07/2011 4:10 PM
Tim:

Providing information leaves as you say taking the time to read it AND the ability to understand and comprehend that information.

Just one is of little value.

As to providing contract details to property owners in general I would be against that. The contractors have business relationships with the Board NOT the individual property owners. Some of our contractors would not want their prices and contract terms made public where other customers might obtain the details.

Sam's claim this would boost participation to 100% is pie in the sky. Lets face it and to make that claim it suggests at least to me Same has no idea what he is talking about or suggesting.

I prefer to live and operate in the REAL world. And spend time on the important purposes of serving on the Board not looking to drag people in to participate that more than likely have no interest in doing so.

As a Board member my job is to manage the operations of the property not serve as motivation coach to people who can't show an interest in the most valuable asset they have. If they don't get it I accept their role and can live with it.

I find this almost amusing.............it as if you are saying ONLY BOARD MEMBERS have the intelligence to understand anything? The Home Owners themselves? NAH!

There is no reason why the Home Owners cannot be privy to ALL issues their Board Members are discussing/contemplating via a Free Message Board on the internet 24/7 365 days a year! And there is NO reason why the Home Owners cannot contribute their .02 cents on that same Message Board! They could actually set up a Poll Thingie like the one here: CLICK HERE!

Every HOA in the Country should do ALL that they can to DISPLAY COMPLETE TRANSPARENCY! As it is now? So much Corruption and total BS occurs daily!
The Home Owners should always enjoy "Informational Voting Rights"! This is now the 21st Century! We are no longer living in the 60's when HOAs were 'invented'!

Note to Tim? A friend in Colorado? Your site is not working? Can you send me your e-mail so that I can forward some screen shots to you? Thanks.......Sam

Sam Judie
SamJ2 (Nevada)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanW1 on 01/07/2011 7:18 AM
Unless the HOA documents allow business to be conducted by electronic devices, all this is for naught.

I encourage a simple policy each year, passed by the board, that allows for communication by whatever means (postal pony to Blackberry) but IMHO, casting votes needs to be done the traditional way: at a duly called meeting - in person, designated proxy or by written/returned ballot.


NO NO NO...............You never have to wait to hear from every single home Owner? It can just be 2 or 3? The numbers matter not! BUT! The idea that ALL home owners have the right to read ALL THE ISSUES being contemplated by their Board 24/7 365 days a year! That if they choose? Each Home Owner can actively participate in their HOA 24/7 365 days a year from the Convenience of their Home Computer.......

You know? I wonder? Are most of the Posters on this Forum? Actually making a living being a part of the HOA Industry? Are most of you past or current Board Members? Are you working for HOA Management Companies or Collection Agencies? Do most of you have a VESTED $$$ INTEREST in keeping everything as it is? You really DO NOT EVER WISH that Americans would actually get to enjoy a very easy and inexpensive way to actually "HAVE A SAY IN THEIR HOA"? ......I find this ALL totally scary........May God Help The Home Owners! ....Sam

Sam Judie
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Sam it is NOT a matter of intelligence it IS a matter of making the effort to be involved.

I don't wish to spend MORE time dragging people into the issues of their own property kicking and screaming.

Or working even harder to provide information many simply do not want.

And your hope informational voting will revolutionize HOAs well time will tell.
Good luck with that.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Sam,

I am in VA. My e-mail is [email protected]

Tim
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Sam,

Please respond to my earlier post as I am trying to see if I understand your concept properly:

Sam,

Let me see if I get your proposal correctly. You are saying:

1. Governing Documents are available to every homeowner
2. Names and contact info of Board members will be available to every homeowner.
3. Issues that the board will be discussing will be posted prior to a board meeting.
4. Members, in the form of a poll or comments, will vote on how the Board should proceed on each and every issue before the Board.
5. The board is not obligated to follow the recommendation of the membership based on the poll/vote

You claim that this will provide a 100% membership participation.

Do I understand this correctly?

Tim
SamJ2 (Nevada)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JonD1 on 01/07/2011 4:41 PM
Sam it is NOT a matter of intelligence it IS a matter of making the effort to be involved.

I don't wish to spend MORE time dragging people into the issues of their own property kicking and screaming.

Or working even harder to provide information many simply do not want.

And your hope informational voting will revolutionize HOAs well time will tell.
Good luck with that.

Again Jon? You already spend time dragging people into issues of their property? On My? I am glad I do not live in your Community!

Why would you do that? Does your town own a Newspaper? Does the town spend time making their Residents READ that paper? NO! But it is available to every resident if they so desire to read it?

Don't your HOA Manager and Board Members correspond via e-mails on several occassions during the weeks between each scheduled HOA Meeting? Discussing ALL the Issues you will be discussing during your Next Meeting?

With computers today........you can copy & paste ALL pertinent info.......all the agendas.....pertaining to your Community onto a website/Message Board in a matter of just 2 or 3 minutes! Then all Home Owners can take all the time they want READING those issues 24/7 365 days a year from the convenience of their Home Computer! And on that same Message Board.....the Home Owners themselves can give you feedback on how they would like to see those issues handled!

What is the Big Deal? Just include a one line sentence on ALL correspondence to the home owners with your DOT COM!

And again? I stress! It matters not at all if only 1% participates! The numbers matter not!

But every Home Owner, in this...........the 21st Century.....should be allowed to have a VERY EASY WAY TO PARTICIPATE ....TO "HAVE A SAY" IN THEIR HOA!

~

Sam Judie
RanaG1 (Nevada)
Posts: 2
Posted:
Tim, Sam and all:

The list you have outlined is available to my association on our message board right now. All board members e-nmail address' are listed, the board agenda is up the required 4 days ahead of the board meetings, and there are many homeowners who will send in their opinion as to what way they would like the board to vote. In addition, on a hot issue, my forum lobbys weeks ahead to get the owners primmed and ready so that they will participate and make the meeting and/or e-mail their opinion. THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS. The bad news is that one 1 of the 7 board members EVER responds to e-mail and no matter the issue the board NEVER pays any attention to what the residents want in the way of a vote.

A perfect example is the situation we have going on right now. Our volunteer community patrol (security) is several hundred strong and cruise the community in association owned marked cars showing an ever present force. It's great. They have just elected their new chief but the board, who normally "rubber stamps" committee appointments and service groups like this does not like this man because he has vocally shown opposition to some board decisions. Now they don't want to approve his election. This threatens a walk-out of the entire volunteer force and goes against the will of the entire community, do they care....NO!
SamJ2 (Nevada)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/07/2011 4:55 PM
Sam,

Please respond to my earlier post as I am trying to see if I understand your concept properly:

Sam,

Let me see if I get your proposal correctly. You are saying:

1. Governing Documents are available to every homeowner
2. Names and contact info of Board members will be available to every homeowner.
3. Issues that the board will be discussing will be posted prior to a board meeting.
4. Members, in the form of a poll or comments, will vote on how the Board should proceed on each and every issue before the Board.
5. The board is not obligated to follow the recommendation of the membership based on the poll/vote

You claim that this will provide a 100% membership participation.

Do I understand this correctly?

Tim

No ........not correctly.....
1. Yes........Governing Documents should be posted on Website so that any Home Owner can view them at any time
2. Yes
3. BIG YES!
4. YES!
5. Yes.....BUT.....if the home owners observe Board Members voting in the opposite direction of their input on issues? Hmmmmm? Well............I would guess at Election time? Those particular Board Members would be VOTED OUT!

100% Participation? NO! That would never happen! But? In the beginning? Say the first six months....there may be just 1% Participation......but as time goes by...word of mouth........and when Home Owners learn that THEY THEMSELVES GET TO HAVE A SAY IN THEIR HOA - 24/7 - 365 Days a year?.......Participation will CLIMB year after year!


Sam Judie
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Rana,

If I understood Sams' methodology, under his system the Board wouldn't be tied to the will of the membership either.

Typically, there should only be one person responding to the membership for the Board. That person would be whomever is serving as President. If asked, they should provide details, like on a vote of 3 to 2 we approved/denied xyz.

Please, Lets try to keep this thread about the informational voting system only - as doing otherwise just makes things hard to follow.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Sam,

Then other than the 100% participation, you are saying that I have an understanding of what your methodology is.

The only difference I see in what you are saying to do and what my Association (and I suspect many others) is to have a system where a homeowner can "vote" via the internet vs. attending the bord meeting in person and offering an opinion. Is this correct?

Tim
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Yes Sam we are ALL a bunch of overpaid underworked Board members. Trying to keep those poor American HOA property owners in the dark. You figured it all out.

Lets just hope the rest of them don't see through our plan.
SamJ2 (Nevada)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JonD1 on 01/07/2011 5:39 PM
Yes Sam we are ALL a bunch of overpaid underworked Board members. Trying to keep those poor American HOA property owners in the dark. You figured it all out.

Lets just hope the rest of them don't see through our plan.

Jon.........You Be Funny! NOT!

But you are typical of Board Members throughout the Country?

Some people get this bug up their ass........say? I am old or semi-retired.......with lots of time on my hands....I been to a couple of Board Meetings and I saw what takes place? And I think to myself? Hey? I could be a Board Member! I am Community Minded! I am smarter than the Average Bear...and I have Good Taste.........meaning I know what paint colors look good together, I know which plants and flowers would look great in Our Community? I would love it if my neighbors were zealous in storing their Garbage Can right after the Garbage Truck comes so that I did not have to look at that unsitely container all day long until the neighbors get home from work and remove it from site! Then.....their friends/neighbors vote them onto the Board? After a couple of meetings where they get to vote on stuff....shouting "Yay" or "Nay"...they discover that 'this' is kind of fun! And I like it that I get to sit in judgement of my neighbor who wants to paint his house? Change his Landscaping? Etc? And he/she discovers that he/she likes this feeling of 'power' that he/she never experienced before! Giving FINES to Neighbors who let that WEED sit unpulled several days too long? WOW! I feel just like a Congressman or Senator? How cool is this? At Meetings? I sit on something compared to a throne even? At the Head of the Room where all my subjects are delegated to sitting facing me? Why? I FEEL JUST LIKE ROYALTY!

But as Human Nature has proven again and again? Board Members sometimes go totally WHACKY! Like the "Stanford Prison Experiment in 1971"

They no longer do what would be considered the 'Nice Thing'? The 'Right Thing'? The 'Smart Thing'? They get carried away and in no time are doing things that actually TEAR THEIR COMMUNITY APART!

Again? Jon? Why are you so afraid of letting the Home Owners SEE everything that goes on in their HOA for themselves? In Writing? On a Free Website/Message Board 24/7 365 days a year from the convenience of their Home Computer?

Why Jon? Why? Do you really think that ONLY Board Members have the right to this information? WHY? Tell Me? Jon? What makes you so special?

Personally? I feel............."SHAME ON YOU" for not showing FULL TRANSPARENCY to All The Home Owners!

Especially when that "Transparency" can be shown in minutes using "COPY & PASTE" all items on the Board's Agenda onto a Website/Message Board! AT NO COST WHATSOEVER!

Again? In this....the 21st Century .....I say "SHAME ON YOU" for not letting your HOA enjoy COMPLETE TRANSPARENCY!

~

Sam Judie
SamJ2 (Nevada)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/07/2011 5:36 PM
Sam,

Then other than the 100% participation, you are saying that I have an understanding of what your methodology is.

The only difference I see in what you are saying to do and what my Association (and I suspect many others) is to have a system where a homeowner can "vote" via the internet vs. attending the bord meeting in person and offering an opinion. Is this correct?

Tim

YES! TIM! YES!

Please? How much easier would it be for the Home Owners! Treck to an infrequent HOA Meeting usually held at the 'Dinner Hour'? Sit in a chair at the back of the room where it is difficult to hear what is being said? Then if you do want to respond to something? You have to be very quick! THINK ON YOUR FEET! Then they limit your input/response to JUST TWO MINUTES! And then it is hard for everyone to HEAR your response too?

NO! NO! NO!

Open Up Your HOA! Start Showing Complete Transparency! In this....the 21st Century!

POST ALL ITEMS concerning your HOA on a Website/Message Board! IN WRITING!

Then? Every single Home Owner can read/study those items 'at their Leisure' from the convenience of their Home Computer or Library Computer! 24/7 365 Days a Year!

But best of all? That home owner gets to compose "His Response" to any given 'item'....taking all the time he/she needs....editing it a dozen times if needed? Before clicking on the "Submit" button!

FUNNY? This reminds me of a saying? "POWER TO THE PEOPLE"

Well Kids? Isn't it time to give the Power To The HOME OWNERS?

~


Sam Judie
SamJ2 (Nevada)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JonD1 on 01/07/2011 4:10 PM
Tim:

Providing information leaves as you say taking the time to read it AND the ability to understand and comprehend that information.

Just one is of little value.

As to providing contract details to property owners in general I would be against that. The contractors have business relationships with the Board NOT the individual property owners. Some of our contractors would not want their prices and contract terms made public where other customers might obtain the details.

Sam's claim this would boost participation to 100% is pie in the sky. Lets face it and to make that claim it suggests at least to me Same has no idea what he is talking about or suggesting.

I prefer to live and operate in the REAL world. And spend time on the important purposes of serving on the Board not looking to drag people in to participate that more than likely have no interest in doing so.

As a Board member my job is to manage the operations of the property not serve as motivation coach to people who can't show an interest in the most valuable asset they have. If they don't get it I accept their role and can live with it.

Jon? Your statement: "As to providing contract details to property owners in general I would be against that. The contractors have business relationships with the Board NOT the individual property owners. Some of our contractors would not want their prices and contract terms made public where other customers might obtain the details."

This is just the sort of thing that causes what I would consider a LOT of the CORRUPTION in HOAs throughout the Country!

In our little Community? Board Members themselves have been awarded Contracts to make repairs in Our Community! And on other occassions? If a wall or something needed painting? Our HOA would show us a "Bid Proposal" that is for Thousands Higher than average? And then either the Board Member Himself or a friend/relative of that Board Member would do the actual job? Pocketing the very inflated cost of the project! This is SO CORRUPT!

HOAs throughout the contry get Bid Proposals that are several times higher than what the 'going cost' is........then accepting 'kick backs' ....

So? Why Not let ALL Home Owners SEE the Books? Let them see just WHERE their $MONEY$ is going?

Most HOAs DO NOT allow the viewing of their Books for the very reason: THERE IS CORRUPTION! SHAME! SHAME on most HOA Management Companies!

So Jon? Where did you obtain your Education? Was it on a Planet that is superior to my little High School here in Henderson, Nevada? You think that I therefore .....have NO IDEA WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT? How great for you to have knowledge that is soooooo superior to mine! CONGRATULATIONS!

Sam Judie
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Sam just wondering have you ever served on a property Board?
Are you familiar with the requirements in its day to day operations?
Have you ever dealt with property owners and the widespread apathy they seem to live under regarding their own property?

Or is it in Nevada apathy can't be found?

As other have suggested to you steps have been made to keep the owners informed.
Methods to allow the property owners to know what is going on.
Time and time again we hear about low turnout at monthly meetings, low voter turnout for Board elections but this signifies nothing to you. Now only if the owners were now provided a service to post all information on a web site so they could view it in the comfort of their own home. That as you suggest would change everthing.

And you don't see this might increase the effort required by any Board to now set up and maintain this web based service?
Just a few more hours of work each month right?

Funny I guess those old fashioned newsletters just don't have the appeal. Guess taking the time to attend your Board meeting might just be to much. Guess taking the time to return your proxy ballot in the stamped return envelope once time per year requires to much effort for some.

And this to YOU suggets a group of owners longing to be provided MORE information?

Good luck with your plan to change the HOA world and human nature. When that is done I see a real need for this informational voting system in our national politics. Don't you see the American voters just have not been provided enough information and detail and IF the government would set up a web site for complete transparency in the 21st century this would be all that is needed to give the power back to the people. And they would begin to vote and participate in record numbers because now they have finally been given the necessary information in the only form they could ever want or need.

I've wasted enough of my time going round in circles with you.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Sam,

I thank you for sticking through this to help me understand the concept. If you look at the top of this thread, I've already stated how my Association is meeting what you are proposing with the only exception being a poll (as our forums provide an avenue for feedback). Granted every Association is ran differently as that is the prerogative of each Board. In my Association anyone who makes the effort to attend a Board meeting is not limited to two min. and is given the exact same materials as the Board is provided.

My concern with using only the internet, vs. face to face, is the following:

1. An opportunity is lost to meet your neighbors and develop a closer community.

2. An opportunity is lost to see the facial expressions and the body language of an individual (member or director) to see if the discussion is being understood or needs to be restated to provide better understanding.

3. An opportunity is lost to see an individuals passion behind the discussion when presenting an issue (vs. just reading polite conversation in type).

4. The possibility is created, based on the readers mood, to read something into a statement that just wasn't the intent of the writer. This could cause great friction where none was intended and could have been stopped, defused or eliminated in a face to face (As sometimes minor things are blown way out of proportion when left to simmer waiting for a response).

5. An opportunity may be lost to ask questions if the member just makes a statement of opinion then logs off or decides to watch something on you tube.

I fully understand that society is moving away from face to face discussions and toward a faceless method of sharing thoughts and ideas (like this forum). However, when the individual happens to be your next door neighbor or lives across the street I believe that the extra effort should be made to say hello and offer a welcoming handshake.

Therefore, Since my Association is already providing opportunities for membership participation (posting of materials, website forums, contact info, announcement of meetings, open meetings, mail, phone, e-mail, face to face) combined with the concerns listed above, I do not see any additional benefit to my Association using your system.

Again, I do thank you for taking the time to allow me to understand it. I believe you can see where my Association is already using 99% of what you are proposing.

Tim
SamJ2 (Nevada)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JonD1 on 01/08/2011 6:15 AM
Sam just wondering have you ever served on a property Board?
Are you familiar with the requirements in its day to day operations?
Have you ever dealt with property owners and the widespread apathy they seem to live under regarding their own property?

Or is it in Nevada apathy can't be found?

As other have suggested to you steps have been made to keep the owners informed.
Methods to allow the property owners to know what is going on.
Time and time again we hear about low turnout at monthly meetings, low voter turnout for Board elections but this signifies nothing to you. Now only if the owners were now provided a service to post all information on a web site so they could view it in the comfort of their own home. That as you suggest would change everthing.

And you don't see this might increase the effort required by any Board to now set up and maintain this web based service?
Just a few more hours of work each month right?

Funny I guess those old fashioned newsletters just don't have the appeal. Guess taking the time to attend your Board meeting might just be to much. Guess taking the time to return your proxy ballot in the stamped return envelope once time per year requires to much effort for some.

And this to YOU suggets a group of owners longing to be provided MORE information?

Good luck with your plan to change the HOA world and human nature. When that is done I see a real need for this informational voting system in our national politics. Don't you see the American voters just have not been provided enough information and detail and IF the government would set up a web site for complete transparency in the 21st century this would be all that is needed to give the power back to the people. And they would begin to vote and participate in record numbers because now they have finally been given the necessary information in the only form they could ever want or need.

I've wasted enough of my time going round in circles with you.


Yes Jon.....by all means quit wasting your time and ours. You state things that are just NOT true! But you sir are of the ilk who will never understand...anything you do not want to understand?

I have operated our FREE Community Website: rl1234 dot com since 2003! I have personally spent over One Thousand Dollars in printing cards and postage to send out Mailings to our 329 Home Owners 3-4 times since 2003!

Last Dec '09 .........I ran for the Board.........won with more votes than our Long-time Board President who's Uncle is the Mayor of our City of Henderson. I have enlisted the help of like-minded Neighbors to also run for Our Board? As I am just one against 7! I would always be out-voted and therefore could never enact any real change in Our HOA! I failed in getting others to help me....so? About three months ago? I resigned as Board Member! In disgust with my crappy little Community! By myself? I could do nothing more than act as a "Reporter" posting what went on at our Meetings on our Website/Message Board. Actually....previous to Resigning? I met Jonathan Friedrich! And I am now his Volunteer Web Site Guy! The HOA Advocate. And I was so disgusted with my HOA? I never want to see our Long-Time Board Members with 'an agenda' ever again! Instead? My Heart & Soul now belongs to Jonathan Friedrich in doing ALL that I can to help Change Nevada's NRS116 Laws to make them more "Home-Owner Friendly"!

And again Jon? You sound so 'flippant' that Home Owners should just simply attend these meetings in person! We never want to change the "atmosphere" of Our HOA to resemble something not akin to Royalty or Congress? Now would you? You like it just the way it is!...

Well.......Again? ......Please? It is the 21st Century! Start SHOWING COMPLETE TRANSPARENCY!


Sam Judie
SamJ2 (Nevada)
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/08/2011 6:24 AM
Sam,

I thank you for sticking through this to help me understand the concept. If you look at the top of this thread, I've already stated how my Association is meeting what you are proposing with the only exception being a poll (as our forums provide an avenue for feedback). Granted every Association is ran differently as that is the prerogative of each Board. In my Association anyone who makes the effort to attend a Board meeting is not limited to two min. and is given the exact same materials as the Board is provided.

My concern with using only the internet, vs. face to face, is the following:

1. An opportunity is lost to meet your neighbors and develop a closer community.

2. An opportunity is lost to see the facial expressions and the body language of an individual (member or director) to see if the discussion is being understood or needs to be restated to provide better understanding.

3. An opportunity is lost to see an individuals passion behind the discussion when presenting an issue (vs. just reading polite conversation in type).

4. The possibility is created, based on the readers mood, to read something into a statement that just wasn't the intent of the writer. This could cause great friction where none was intended and could have been stopped, defused or eliminated in a face to face (As sometimes minor things are blown way out of proportion when left to simmer waiting for a response).

5. An opportunity may be lost to ask questions if the member just makes a statement of opinion then logs off or decides to watch something on you tube.

I fully understand that society is moving away from face to face discussions and toward a faceless method of sharing thoughts and ideas (like this forum). However, when the individual happens to be your next door neighbor or lives across the street I believe that the extra effort should be made to say hello and offer a welcoming handshake.

Therefore, Since my Association is already providing opportunities for membership participation (posting of materials, website forums, contact info, announcement of meetings, open meetings, mail, phone, e-mail, face to face) combined with the concerns listed above, I do not see any additional benefit to my Association using your system.

Again, I do thank you for taking the time to allow me to understand it. I believe you can see where my Association is already using 99% of what you are proposing.

Tim

NO! NO! NO! You misunderstand! I never proposed ONLY using the Internet! NO! Keep everything the same way it has been since the 60's!

But! Add the ability of letting ALL Home Owners SEE in WRITING all issues pertaining to their Community on a Website/Message Board with the ability to give their .02 cents in writing on that same Message Board! 24/7 365 days a year...from the convenience of their Home Computer!

Tim? Why is this concept so frightening to you? It really is harmless...........

No worse than if you let your Community have a Community-Wide FACE BOOK PAGE!


Sam Judie
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Sam,

I don't think you need to post in a tone like you did. I also don't believe what Jon was saying was untrue.

As I said, every Association operates differently. Each Board may decide how they will operate as long as it complies with their governing documents and State laws. What might not be true for your Association could easily be true for other Associations.

I'm glad you got involved with your Association. Sounds like you went through a lot of what I went through. It's a shame you felt the need to resign from the Board. I'm sure it was a tough decision for you knowing that you were letting the people down who voted you in.

Heck, my parents never got beyond using the computer for games and e-mail. I don't think they ever used the internet. It's a generational thing. My daughter can't appear to live without facebook and twitter. However, I don't use either one as I prefer phone calls and letters. Therefore, even though these methods of sharing information are available, I would venture to say that the majority of homeowners are of a generation that doesn't use the technology in the way you are proposing. It's not that the technology can't be used that way, it's just a matter of preference.

In time, through attrition, things will change. It can be frustrating for anyone wanting to use the next greatest thing to it's full potential. However, this is the way society tends to work. All that can really be done is to offer the possibilities.

Tim
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SamJ2 on 01/08/2011 7:17 AM


NO! NO! NO! You misunderstand! I never proposed ONLY using the Internet! NO! Keep everything the same way it has been since the 60's!

But! Add the ability of letting ALL Home Owners SEE in WRITING all issues pertaining to their Community on a Website/Message Board with the ability to give their .02 cents in writing on that same Message Board! 24/7 365 days a year...from the convenience of their Home Computer!

Tim? Why is this concept so frightening to you? It really is harmless...........

No worse than if you let your Community have a Community-Wide FACE BOOK PAGE!


Sam,

It appears that you failed to read my posting near the top of this thread (in the #2 position).

The concept is not "frightening" to me. We do have a website with what you say we should have. We do not have a facebook page as FB has been proven to not be as secure. Therefore, we are not "stuck in the 60's".

As I have been polite in my posts to you, I request the same courtesy in your posts to me. Your posting style makes it difficult for me to determine if you are being sarcastic to make a point or just belittling me for failure to understand how you are presenting the issue.

My Association has a message board and forums on the website that members may use. I know, I am the administrator of this site and am the one who made all our governing documents available and created the forums. I also have placed all minutes, audits and reserve studies from 1977 to present on the site.

Since my Associations site appears to be providing everything you say we should be providing for to move toward an informational voting rights methodology, I find it surprising that you are saying these things about me and/or my Association.

If you believe that my site, as described, is missing something you feel should be there - please be definitive in saying what it should be. This way I can learn and perhaps provide the technological option to the membership.

I believe that I have been definitive in my concerns. Am I missing something that you system has that would eliminate those concerns?

Tim

JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SamJ2 on 01/08/2011 7:05 AM
Posted By JonD1 on 01/08/2011 6:15 AM
Sam just wondering have you ever served on a property Board?
Are you familiar with the requirements in its day to day operations?
Have you ever dealt with property owners and the widespread apathy they seem to live under regarding their own property?

Or is it in Nevada apathy can't be found?

As other have suggested to you steps have been made to keep the owners informed.
Methods to allow the property owners to know what is going on.
Time and time again we hear about low turnout at monthly meetings, low voter turnout for Board elections but this signifies nothing to you. Now only if the owners were now provided a service to post all information on a web site so they could view it in the comfort of their own home. That as you suggest would change everthing.

And you don't see this might increase the effort required by any Board to now set up and maintain this web based service?
Just a few more hours of work each month right?

Funny I guess those old fashioned newsletters just don't have the appeal. Guess taking the time to attend your Board meeting might just be to much. Guess taking the time to return your proxy ballot in the stamped return envelope once time per year requires to much effort for some.

And this to YOU suggets a group of owners longing to be provided MORE information?

Good luck with your plan to change the HOA world and human nature. When that is done I see a real need for this informational voting system in our national politics. Don't you see the American voters just have not been provided enough information and detail and IF the government would set up a web site for complete transparency in the 21st century this would be all that is needed to give the power back to the people. And they would begin to vote and participate in record numbers because now they have finally been given the necessary information in the only form they could ever want or need.

I've wasted enough of my time going round in circles with you.



Yes Jon.....by all means quit wasting your time and ours. You state things that are just NOT true! But you sir are of the ilk who will never understand...anything you do not want to understand?

I have operated our FREE Community Website: rl1234 dot com since 2003! I have personally spent over One Thousand Dollars in printing cards and postage to send out Mailings to our 329 Home Owners 3-4 times since 2003!

Last Dec '09 .........I ran for the Board.........won with more votes than our Long-time Board President who's Uncle is the Mayor of our City of Henderson. I have enlisted the help of like-minded Neighbors to also run for Our Board? As I am just one against 7! I would always be out-voted and therefore could never enact any real change in Our HOA! I failed in getting others to help me....so? About three months ago? I resigned as Board Member! In disgust with my crappy little Community! By myself? I could do nothing more than act as a "Reporter" posting what went on at our Meetings on our Website/Message Board. Actually....previous to Resigning? I met Jonathan Friedrich! And I am now his Volunteer Web Site Guy! The HOA Advocate. And I was so disgusted with my HOA? I never want to see our Long-Time Board Members with 'an agenda' ever again! Instead? My Heart & Soul now belongs to Jonathan Friedrich in doing ALL that I can to help Change Nevada's NRS116 Laws to make them more "Home-Owner Friendly"!

And again Jon? You sound so 'flippant' that Home Owners should just simply attend these meetings in person! We never want to change the "atmosphere" of Our HOA to resemble something not akin to Royalty or Congress? Now would you? You like it just the way it is!...

Well.......Again? ......Please? It is the 21st Century! Start SHOWING COMPLETE TRANSPARENCY!


So Sam lets get this straight you run your own community web site? Why is it NOT funded by the Board? And after spending $1,000 it has accomplished what? Other than serving as a place for your views?

And you got more votes than the President whose UNCLE is the Mayor. Sometime you will have to expalin how that even matters. Or why I should be impressed.

And surprise surprise the other Board members just couldn't see the appeal of your ideas. Gee that's how AMERICAN democratic governnace works Sam, majority rules and minority (that would be YOU) doesn't win. How shocking. So like all other zealots you quit and took your balls home and have now decided the community in which you reside is a "crappy little community". How nice.

Gee I get the impression you form equal distain for anyone who fails to see the brilliance.

And gald to hear you met Jonathan Freidrich! It would probably mean more if I had some idea who that in fact was. But if in your world that means something I'm happy for you. Guess you found your next CAUSE or windmill.

And of course if the Board should be required to attend meetings and serve as volunteers what right could we have expecting the homeowners to demonstrate the effort required to actually showing up at a meeting. How dare we be so demanding.

So to recap your informational voting program has yet to be embraced on your own property. After spending $1,000 spreading your views of how the HOA world should be you ran, won, got outvoted and QUIT. Now you've hooked your wagon to Mr. Freidrich whose reputation has yet to make it out of Henderson. No doubt in the hopes he can do what you failed to do on your own single property.

I hope for your sake you haven't spend all that much time on this or perhaps you should prepare yourself properly to live with the dissapointment of more failure.

I do agree with you on one point though. I too am glad you do not live in my community. Or state for that matter. And thankfuly Nevada last time I checked was along way off from New York.

"Informational voting" an idea whose time has yet to come....
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Jon,

I know Sam has a way of pushing your buttons but no need to necessarily respond with similar tone.

Tim
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Tim,

Sam pushes almost everyones buttons with his know it all attitude which I find to be only his opinion and not much else. We all have opinions and mine is that this has gone on much too long. Now we argue about how much cash and effort he has put into HIS website. Bravo!
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Donna,

I agree Sam has that posting style about him. Lord knows I've been guilty of being curt in a few posts myself. However, since I told Sam I thought he was out of line for his last post to Jon, I felt I should do the same to Jon - if at all else just to be fair in the scolding.

If the posts can stay on topic, I agree that this thread is just about done. I've asked Sam to once again clarify how his system can address the concerns I posted. If this can not be done I think that the final result will be to just agree to disagree.

As I stated earlier in this thread, I do believe that most Associations are making the informational available to members. I do believe that this is the main crux of Sams' intention with his system. As I also said, I don't see what my Association is not doing that Sam is suggesting be done. If this can be specifically and definitively pointed out, I'm willing to listen. as Sam had initially stated that his methodology would increase membership participation. I'm open to listen to anything that might do that.

Tim

ScottM6 (Oregon)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Hi Susan,

Offering a community the choice to vote electronically is a means of achieving quorum.
It is an attractive alternative for busy working people that would otherwise not take the time to show up for an annual meeting or even fill out a paper ballot, find a stamp, etc...

Most if not all of this audience has Internet access.

We ALWAYS recommend using electronic voting as an alternative to the way voting is done now, not a replacement.

I do believe there will come a time that the way we do these things today is replaced by electronic means.

In 1994 we started a business as an Internet provider offering dial up services, email, web site development, web application development and more.
Almost EVERY business person we talked to in those days could not see the reason for email when everybody used the FAX. Even less of them could see the reason for having a website.
Today (17 really short years later) the majority of businesses can't imagine not having email or a website.

History gives many examples of major revolutions in technology forever changing the way things were done, here are 3 big ones.

Cars
Telephones
Television

As I reach a certain age I find myself longing for simpler times, wishing some things could just stay the same.
I have to tell myself to go with the flow, it will happen, the ONLY thing constant is change.
Sigh......

Scott

www.VoteHOANow.com
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Tim:

With all due respect, I can handle myself just fine. And if I feel the need to "explain" things to Same or someone else I plan to do so. If you feel the need to comment feel free but I can walk both sides of the street. I can treat people with respect and when necessary I can tell them where to go.

I approach people and return in kind their behavior. To be honest I attempt to control what I say on this site when other words may have been my first choice.

Sam has put in what one year. His Board must have celebrated when he left in disgust. Now he bad mouths his own community because they lacked the wisdom to embace his view of how things should be.

I joined my Board to learn how things operated. After a while i saw things were not done in the best manner possible. To be blunt people needed to go. I worked for 14 YEARS to make changes. YES YEARS. This is my home and investment. Sawm threw in a whole 12 months???? And he was done.

Same talks in general terms suggesting every HOA is what he says it is. Sam seems to want us to believe he knows all.
Sam knows squat.

After serving 25 YEARS on my Board I have learned a few things. Sam seems to doubt anyone might understand their property or any property as well as Sam. All with his 12 months doing nothing.

I have met people like Sam on my property and in many walks of my life. He would have a tough time geting out of his own way.
But he likes to declare his way is the only way and then when you have a different opinion its Shame, Shame Shame or accusations of corruption, or talking down like you are a two year old.

Let Sam waste the rest of his life working to repair the faults in the Nevada HOA system I on the other hand will try to muddle through up here in NY without his wisdom. It will be tough without the informational voting system but I think I will do just fine.

JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posted:
I've watched this thread for days - sometimes amused, sometimes intrigued - but watched nonetheless and now feel like I want to contribute/comment.

I'll do so in three separate areas:

1). Posting "tone" of the major participants (because it DOES affect both the content and the perception by others).
2). Addressing the two major metaphors (definition = "implied comparison") of an HOA to other organizations(because it DOES affect the underlying philosophy that forum participants use when expressing their individual viewpoints).
3). My specific opinion(s) regarding the original precept of this "Informational Voting Rights" issue (which by the way appears to be - from the ultimate multi-person descriptions - to be somewhat of a misnomer).

POSTING TONE:

I would agree that Sam's posting tone is provocative and can, by some, be viewed as deliberately inflammatory. Jon, who normally delivers calm, orderly posts, does seem susceptible to having his buttons pushed by Sam's tone. Tim has demonstrated an extraordinary posture of calm, objective, "truth-seeking" posts that seem (to me at least) to frustrate Sam in that he (Sam) can't seem to get a rise from Tim. Ah .. .. .. just the interplay of various communication styles .

HOA METAPHORS:

Many seem to assume that an HOA metaphorically resembles a governmental entity. The BOD are elected officials using "tax" money (HOA Dues) to fund the operation of an entity that "governs" the populace (Homeowners). But while there are elements of similarity, it's NOT a perfect analogy - either philosophically or logistically. Unlike the governmental model, almost all HOAs are actually business corporations. Thus the other metaphor is the corporation where the shareholders (homeowners) are people who made a conscious decision to vest themselves (both finanacially and legally) in this corporation - having the opportunity ahead of time to fully research, understand, and decide whether or not they would choose to accept the terms (e.g. governing documents) that accompanied their free will decision. With that free will, they voluntarily entered into a legally binding contract with that corporate entity and should expect no less than to be held accountable to the terms of that contract.

My personal opinion is that neither model is perfect - an HOA is really a mixture of both - but it seems that many posters' opinions originate within the strictly held viewpoint of one model or the other. I would suggest you open your mind to the possibility that your strict metaphor isn't entirely true.

INFORMATIONAL VOTING RIGHTS:

The overall concept here seems to hinge on two fundamental precepts - first that organizational operational transparency is a good thing, and secondly that the organization would benefit from the broader input of opinions of those affected by the decisions than from just those who are charged with making the decisions. In a real life situation are these precepts accurate?

It's truly hard to argue with the first assumption. With VERY few exceptions (usually only those subjects that in and of themselves have been judged to be legitimate reasons for BOD Exectuve Sessions) transparency of all HOA issues is a good thing.

As for the second precept, on the surface it sounds perfectly logical and well-meaning, but here the devil TRULY is in the details - both philosophical and practical. The idea that for most (Sam are you really advocating "ALL") decisions that the BOD is asked to make, they will do a better job (better being defined as more closely aligned to the wishes of the majority of the homeowners) if the populace can weigh in on the decision, seems logical on first blush. But is it? From a practical viewpoint, some decisions just don't warrant that level of effort. The decision on whether or not the HOA should purchase one box vs. six boxes of paperclips just doesn't matter enough to create a system (technological or otherwise) to have all homeowners render their opinion on it. The outcome return on the effort investment just isn't worth it. The ROI test fails.

But much more important to address is the assumption (and this assumption seems intrinsic to Sam's idea) that providing a system allowing "real time" homeowner feedback on questions facing the HOA will provide the decision making BOD an accurate representation of the majority opinion of the owners. I think this assumption is seriously flawed. Instead, it is much more likely to render a collective opinion of a subset of the homeowners who feel compelled to closely examine day-to-day operation of the HOA. Please do not misinterpret what I'm saying - I AM NOT saying that close examination of HOA operation is a bad thing - I'm only saying that it likely doesn't represent the broader view of greater numbers of homeowners. So it's very likely that the qualitative results you get from a system that solicits/allows/provides for homeowner opinion on most HOA issues doesn't accurately reflect the overall opinion of the homeowners at large. In scientific research, we call this phenomenon "selection bias" - a situation where you artificially influence the results by inadvertently "selecting" the research participants.

Ah yes, there are those of you who will argue that the homeowners who don't choose to participate in this constant, on-going opportunity have abdicated their "rights" to those of you who will. But I would suggest that's simply not true. There are those homeowners who willfully choose to place their trust and their "just as important vote" as yours to the officers they elect on an annual basis - they don't find the need, they don't have the desire to second guess every decision their elected officer make. AND their votes count just as much as those who want daily operational oversight/input.

So, the Informational Voting Rights "system" while it certainly could be useful, must be interpreted by the Board very carefully. And Sam's assertion that Boards that "violate" the wishes of the results that such a system generates will "get their due" in the next election may or may not really be either true or justified. The simple fact is that this system will provide informational results from only the subset that chooses to use it - which may or may not accurately reflect the populace affected by the decisions being made.

To conclude - let's be very practical here:

1). I'm a technology advocate.
2). I'm an informed decision advocate.
3). I believe generally that more information is better.
4). The system doesn't seem terribly difficult to implement, so why not?
5). The information gathered may well enlighten decision makers to points of view they may not have previously considered.
6). At the end of the day, the decision makers should take all inputs they can reasonably acquire and couple them with their own good sense (hopefully this trait was the basis upon which they achieved their decision making status) to reach the best decision they can.
7). Only hindsight is 20-20 vision - so ultimate judgement is based on a retrospective assessment. The real question is whether or not this Informational Voting Rights system holds the promise of prospectively narrowing the gap to what is ultimately found to be true. My opinion (just mine) is that it will - but only marginally.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
John,

That is the best explanation of informational voting rights I have heard.

Tim
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
John:

Very well thought out and enjoyable recap of this entire thread.

I appreciate your time and effort in putting your comments together.

I need to state for the record we have no plans to put this system into action here.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Sam Judie's comments:

http://13miles.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=4932160

So Sam why bother wasting your time here on this site.
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Sam a person to be taken seriously??

http://hendersonriverlanding.com/_Sam_Judie__Resigns_as_RL_Board_Member_.eml
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Jon,

Thanks for posting the address above. I went to feed my curiosity on this guy and as I have thought all along, this is really someone who would have difficulty working within a structure such as a Board.

As a side note, his complaint is the $300.00 a year dues which made me really laugh so I am good for the day. Try $300.00 a month which is quite normal for most of the HOA dues that I pay in Florida.

GO PACKERS
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Donna:

Just for laughs you should visit the site put together by Sam and his mentor Jonathan Friedrich! (Please note the need for the exclamation point to add to the importance.)

This is a site for zealots with American flags, and pistols to give the impression as stated "A man's home is his castle excpet in an HOA". Both Sam and his spritual leader seem to see all HOAs as the enemy along with members of the Board, MCs, sites such as this, HOA lawyers and anyone else who sees the world differently from them and their 36 registered forum visitors.

YES, 36 soldiers ready to do battle.

Now when you have 36 people willing to post thoughts on your site this would seem to be a real political force no????

Sam is and was a fraud. I strongly dislike these types. (In consideration of Tim I have modified my original comments to maintain decorum. And if you noticed his post placing this site in to the HOA Hall of Shame was made in October of 2010!But he still attempted to come here and spread the nonsense he and Mr. Freidrich seem to live.

My hope in posting these links ( and there were others beleive me!) was to shed some of Sam's most valuable "transparency" on HIM! Let his own words speak for him. Seems Sam has lots of words just not much in the way of substance. An empty barrel makes the most noise. Sam and Jonathan seem to be as empty as they come.

As Sam suggested people have to right to know all. They also have the right to know what agenda you are promoting even when you do your level best to not show it.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

This is on Sams website.

" Wow!

Check It Out!

Whoops! Turns Out This Site is

NOT HOME OWNER FRIENDLY!

It is being paid by those in the

HOA INDUSTRY!

And for that?

This site is now in Our HOA HALL OF SHAME!"

So SAM, what the heck are you here for??????????????
RobW (California)
Posts: 279
Posted:
I've read this entire thread with great interest. I have been on both sides of the fence: a homeowner who wanted to do something not allowed by the Association, and a director and President of the BOD who had to make decisions for the good of all, even when those decisions resulted in inconvenience or discomfort for one homeowner.

I never wanted to be on the Board, and never wanted to be the Architectural Control Committee chair for my Association (a position I currently hold). Like many other homeowners, I had naively thought that by buying a condo and paying a sizable monthly Association fee, I could spend my free time any way I chose, not needing to worry about maintenance, repairs, peaceful enjoyment of my home, or any of the thousand things owners of single family dwellings have to contend with.

Little did I know how wrong my thinking was. I've never worked as hard, nor spent as much money on my home, as I have since moving here - and I owned two single family swellings before buying my condo.

After reading all of the posts in this thread, I'm struck with the fact that no matter what action a BOD takes, X number of homeowners are going to be against it; and no matter what action a BOD fails to take, X number of homeowners are going to be angry that they didn't act.

For this reason, I don't buy the idea that all we need to do is put everything on the Internet, and the homeowners will become involved - and I'm an Internet marketer and web developer by trade. No matter what format is provided, X number of people will express their opinions, X number will lurk in the forums, while X number hate the Internet and will shun the forums altogether. And yes, I agree that if some homeowners express an opinion in a forum, and the BOD decides contrary to those opinions, that come election time, the voting may reflect their dissatisfaction. But how is that any different from the way typical Associations operate? It's just a different medium, but the same old human issues remain. Technology doesn't change that. People still make decisions out of ignorance, still fall for Nigerian Internet scams, still "pass along this e-mail to everybody you know," and still choose to disregard inconvenient facts that get in the way. The Internet makes it easier to be ignorant and abusive to a wider audience, but doesn't necessarily lead to more informed, better educated population. That takes work and dedication.

If someone wants to have an effect on how his community is run, there is no easier way to get that opportunity than to buy into a common interest development. Why? Because chances are that when election time rolls around, at best there will be one candidate for each open Board position. It's not because of lack of transparency. It's because of apathy. And if you get on the Board, you have an opportunity to meet with the decision makers in your community, and actually vote on matters of importance. and if you have what you think is a marvelous idea, all you have to do is convince a majority of the decision makers that it's a worthwhile, legal, necessary and beneficial thing to do. And if you're able to do that, voila! You have taken control of your corner of the universe, and made the world a better place. If you can't convince your fellow decision makers to see things your way, it doesn't mean anything except that you weren't successful in selling your idea.

I have to confess that I have little respect for people who run for the BOD and win a seat, and who then quit in mid-term because they aren't successful in selling their grand ideas to the rest of the Board, or to the membership. It's not always easy to serve, and sticking it out until you figure it out is part of what it takes to be an effective leader.

Rob
JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posted:
Rob - Well done, thoughtful post. Very much in agreement with the position I put forth earlier in this thread.

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