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DeeS1 (Michigan)
Posts: 223
Posted:
Question about covenant contradictions ... I ask because a HO is asking if it's okay to install a fence in his backyard. We do not currently have any fences in our community.

Our recorded bylaws say all fences require approval of the association, even if it is to surround a swimming pool.

Our ACC policy says no fences shall be allowed except invisible dog fences. Obviously, there's a problem with the ACC clause because it omits permission for swimming pool fences, but notwithstanding that, does the ACC rule contradict the bylaw, which says any fence requires permission, or is considered to simply further clarify the bylaw by saying we will only grant permission for dog fences (text below):

Bylaw: Section 24. Fences and Swimming Pools. No above-ground pools shall be permitted in the Condominium. Any fences shall require the prior written approval of the Developer (as long as the Developer owns at least one (1) Unit and, after the expiration of the Development and Sales Period, the Association, even if a fence is to surround an in-ground swimming pool. Additionally, all fences must comply with all applicable law.

ACC Rule: Fences. No fence shall be allowed except invisible/electronic dog fences in the rear yard only.

Thanks,
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Dee - seems pretty clear to me.

No fences in the back yard EXCEPT invisible dog fences.

The HOA must follow laws governing fences around inground pools, but even that fence must be approved by the HOA. The "approval" would be in the way of a compliance issue, ie. height restrictions, material, placement. the HOA would be, in effect, overseeing the law.

Nothing in your material speaks about allowing a regular back yard fence.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Dee,

Well first of all, County Code and perhaps even Michigan State law will require that any pool have a fence surrounding it. That overrules any HOA covenant.

Next, the ACC policy is not the ruling HOA factor, your CC&Rs and ByLaws are. They take precedence over the ACC. The ByLawss state that " say all fences require approval of the association, even if it is to surround a swimming pool."

In my opinion ,there is a direct contradiction of the ACC's and ByLaws--ByLaws rule.

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Dee - see

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/deq-dwrpd-eh-swmpl-SR_Rules_PRINT_COPY_2-8-01_270447_7.pdf
page 10 for enclosures.

Your HOA would oversee the type of fence material. There will be inspections from county or municipal people, too.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 388
Posted:
Dee,

If the ACC rules are a part of the CCRs they would have precedence. But if they are stand alone rules then whatever is in your bylaws would take precedence. IMO, the ACC rule needs to be amended to comply with what is stated in the bylaws. Also, I doubt the assn could prohibit a fence around a swimming pool since most cities/co's require one. Since the bylaws state all fences require prior approval, IMO, the intent of this provision was to allow fences, however the ACC or the board would have authority to state the type of fence and the location on the member's property.

FYI, the link posted by Susan pertains to "public" swimming pools. A pool in an HOA community is not a public pool.
DeeS1 (Michigan)
Posts: 223
Posted:
Thanks.
Our ACC rules are standalone. I agree that the ACC rule needs to be fixed to account for swimming pools, since our community allows in-ground -- but doesn't yet have any.

Mary: You hit directly at what I was actually trying to wrap my head around. The bylaw provision seems to imply that fences of some sort are intended to be allowed. I was wondering if the ACC rule was contradicting that since it is essentially not allowing any type of privacy or boundary fence ... I guess it is technically not contradicting the bylaw ... just limiting it so much as to make the bylaw prohibitive.

Is it even possible to allow 4' fences around back yard in-ground pools and not allow them in all backyards, regardless of if there is a pool? It seems like if you allow fencing, you allow fencing ... what's being fenced wouldn't legally matter, would it? If you wanted to disallow fencing, you would also have to disallow pools.

AnnJ1 (Florida)
Posts: 122
Posted:
Hi Mary...
"FYI, the link posted by Susan pertains to "public" swimming pools. A pool in an HOA community is not a public pool."

I don't want to take this thread off course but thought you might like to know....
Florida law makes a distinction between
private and public swimming pools. Pools
operated by a community association are
designated as public pools. Chapter 64E-9 of the
Florida Administrative Code governs public
swimming pools and contains supervision and
safety requirements. One such requirement
provides that rules and regulations must be posted
in an area legible from the pool deck etc etc etc.

Chapter 64E-9
(3) All pools which do not meet the definition of private pools are public pools.

Ann
Hope you had a Happy Thanksgiving!
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Dee,

I would expect that the Covenants require that the ACC must approve any and all changes to the exterior of a lot (as this is typical in any HOA).

Your Bylaws would be clarifying that this approval process would include any and all fences, including the ones for any pool. The bylaws also specify that only in-ground pools would be considered for approval.

Your Architectural guidelines specify that the ACC is only approving invisible fences. This wording would also imply that the ACC is not considering applications for in-ground pools (as they would typically require a fence by county law).

NOTE: unless the guidelines are part of a document that requires membership approval - they can typically be changed with just a BOD resolution.

Therefore, I do not see a conflict. However, as others have stated, I do see a need to amend the guideline to address fences for swimming pools.

Tim
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
My 55+ HOA (126 private homes on indivisual lots) is in Horry County, South Carolina.

The (owners, residents, and their guests only) community pool is classified as a "Class B Public Pool".

This actually makes sense since non-owners (guests) are permitted to use an ammenity which is operated by other people than the 'direct inviters', and therefor need additional protection than if it were a 'backyard' (private) pool.

Hard to explain, but makes sense when the 'code' is read.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
sic. INDIVIDUAL lots

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