MC doing work for homes without ARB approval

JeffP6 (Florida)
Posts: 91

Posted:

Hey all - hoping someone else has some insight in to how we deal with this.

We all know it is the homeowners responsibility to get ARB approval before doing something to their property. How do you handle it if their MC just does changes to the property without the HOA ever getting an ARB to even approve.

Here is the background - MC used to be a homeowner in the neighborhood. Started his MC and it took off - he moved on to a bigger home and maintains about 20 properties within the sub. MC used to be great - now has a crappy attention to detail. Is notorious for doing a great job on their homeowners homes a couple days before they get into town so the HOA looks like a bunch of idiots for sending violation letters when the homeowner shows up and everything is great.

MC has added onto the patio of a resident / painted the driveway of a resident / added onto the driveway of a resident - All of this work was done with ARB approval. Now I know that we can make the homeowner return it to the original state but how the heck do we prevent this MC from continuing to do whatever they want when they dont have Board approval yet? Does the board have the authority to tell the MC to stop work when we see it being done and we dont have an ARB on file?

We are contacting our attorney for guidance as well - this specific MC has had a long history with our HOA - was using one of their homeowners homes as an office (show up 8-5) office without anyone living their in violation of county code, and to top it off to the joy of the homeowners on that street - to get around having to pull garbage cans into the homes after trash pick took to picking up the trash for ALL of their homes and depositing it at the office for pickup...This led to on average 35-40 bags of trash not in containers that the vultures ripped apart.

We have dealt with the office / garbage issue - code enforcement was quite helpful - how the heck do we deal with the rest of this - or can we?

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

The MC works for the HOA not the other way around. If he is not performing there should be a clause in the contract to terminate him and hire a new one. As to him doing work right before the H/O shows up, there has been a device around since the civil war called a camera, most cell phones now days even have them built in.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

JeffP6 (Florida)
Posts: 91

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GlenL on 10/22/2010 7:52 PM
The MC works for the HOA not the other way around. If he is not performing there should be a clause in the contract to terminate him and hire a new one. As to him doing work right before the H/O shows up, there has been a device around since the civil war called a camera, most cell phones now days even have them built in.

Sorry maybe I wasnt clear - not the HOA MC - a property manager for several of the homes - we are 70% overseas homeownership

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffP6 on 10/22/2010 2:51 PM

We all know it is the homeowners responsibility to get ARB approval before doing something to their property. How do you handle it if their MC just does changes to the property without the HOA ever getting an ARB to even approve.

We have dealt with the office / garbage issue - code enforcement was quite helpful - how the heck do we deal with the rest of this - or can we?

Jeff,

What I quoted above is the entire crux of your issue. The member is responsible for the property. It doesn't matter if the MC or a tenant failed to follow the guidelines. The member is responsible. Therefore, the Board should follow the enforcement procedures outlined in the governing documents against the member (owner) of the property. Since the Board is aware that the property is managed a courtesy copy to the MC would be nice but the issue is between the Board and the member.

I personally had to deal with a similar issue in my HOA. Contacting the owner directly identified that they were unaware of any issues as the MC failed to forward the complaints to them. Bottom line was, once the owner was made aware of the problem, the issues were resolved. A few months later the owner also informed us that the property had a new manager and provided the information.

The board needs to deal directly with the member and not the management company.

Tim

SureshD
Posts: 268

Posted:

Hey all - hoping someone else has some insight in to how we deal with this.

We all know it is the homeowners responsibility to get ARB approval before doing something to their property. How do you handle it if their MC just does changes to the property without the HOA ever getting an ARB to even approve.

Here is the background - MC used to be a homeowner in the neighborhood. Started his MC and it took off - he moved on to a bigger home and maintains about 20 properties within the sub. MC used to be great - now has a crappy attention to detail. Is notorious for doing a great job on their homeowners homes a couple days before they get into town so the HOA looks like a bunch of idiots for sending violation letters when the homeowner shows up and everything is great.

MC has added onto the patio of a resident / painted the driveway of a resident / added onto the driveway of a resident - All of this work was done with ARB approval. Now I know that we can make the homeowner return it to the original state but how the heck do we prevent this MC from continuing to do whatever they want when they dont have Board approval yet? Does the board have the authority to tell the MC to stop work when we see it being done and we dont have an ARB on file?

We are contacting our attorney for guidance as well - this specific MC has had a long history with our HOA - was using one of their homeowners homes as an office (show up 8-5) office without anyone living their in violation of county code, and to top it off to the joy of the homeowners on that street - to get around having to pull garbage cans into the homes after trash pick took to picking up the trash for ALL of their homes and depositing it at the office for pickup...This led to on average 35-40 bags of trash not in containers that the vultures ripped apart.

We have dealt with the office / garbage issue - code enforcement was quite helpful - how the heck do we deal with the rest of this - or can we?

No you can't ALWAYS make the owner return it to the original state.

Florida has very strict ARB/ARC authority restrictions.

Was any of the work done outside of the ARC/ARB's guidelines?
(i.e. driveway color not allowed; patio design size, setback, etc.)

IF NOT just ask them to submit an application for the changes made SO FAR and remind them of the process.
This is the MOST cost effective.

Assuming all is as you say, IF your docs. don't explicitly prevent or specify patio or driveway color/design criterion (in this case) then the ARB/ARC will have difficulty disapproving such mods. regardless of the fact there was no application.

If the mods. are illegal in your HOA, as per your docs. then you have the authority granted in those docs. to pursue remedy.

Doubtful that any layperson could legally restrain an MC from working on a property in which he is in contract to maintain. You'll need a court order (injunction) or code violation (city order) to halt someone's otherwise legal activities.

These are civil/non-criminal matters and without paperwork the Police are not likely to interfere in HOA rule enforcement.

JeffP6 (Florida)
Posts: 91

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SureshD on 10/23/2010 8:18 AM
Hey all - hoping someone else has some insight in to how we deal with this.

We all know it is the homeowners responsibility to get ARB approval before doing something to their property. How do you handle it if their MC just does changes to the property without the HOA ever getting an ARB to even approve.

Here is the background - MC used to be a homeowner in the neighborhood. Started his MC and it took off - he moved on to a bigger home and maintains about 20 properties within the sub. MC used to be great - now has a crappy attention to detail. Is notorious for doing a great job on their homeowners homes a couple days before they get into town so the HOA looks like a bunch of idiots for sending violation letters when the homeowner shows up and everything is great.

MC has added onto the patio of a resident / painted the driveway of a resident / added onto the driveway of a resident - All of this work was done with ARB approval. Now I know that we can make the homeowner return it to the original state but how the heck do we prevent this MC from continuing to do whatever they want when they dont have Board approval yet? Does the board have the authority to tell the MC to stop work when we see it being done and we dont have an ARB on file?

We are contacting our attorney for guidance as well - this specific MC has had a long history with our HOA - was using one of their homeowners homes as an office (show up 8-5) office without anyone living their in violation of county code, and to top it off to the joy of the homeowners on that street - to get around having to pull garbage cans into the homes after trash pick took to picking up the trash for ALL of their homes and depositing it at the office for pickup...This led to on average 35-40 bags of trash not in containers that the vultures ripped apart.

We have dealt with the office / garbage issue - code enforcement was quite helpful - how the heck do we deal with the rest of this - or can we?

No you can't ALWAYS make the owner return it to the original state.

Florida has very strict ARB/ARC authority restrictions.

Was any of the work done outside of the ARC/ARB's guidelines?
(i.e. driveway color not allowed; patio design size, setback, etc.)

IF NOT just ask them to submit an application for the changes made SO FAR and remind them of the process.
This is the MOST cost effective.

Assuming all is as you say, IF your docs. don't explicitly prevent or specify patio or driveway color/design criterion (in this case) then the ARB/ARC will have difficulty disapproving such mods. regardless of the fact there was no application.

If the mods. are illegal in your HOA, as per your docs. then you have the authority granted in those docs. to pursue remedy.

Doubtful that any layperson could legally restrain an MC from working on a property in which he is in contract to maintain. You'll need a court order (injunction) or code violation (city order) to halt someone's otherwise legal activities.

These are civil/non-criminal matters and without paperwork the Police are not likely to interfere in HOA rule enforcement.

Homeowner is in direct violation of the covenants - Covenants specificallsystate that ALL changes to visible portions of your home must be approved by the ARB board.

This includes adding onto your driveway / painting your driveway (we have an approved color palette) and ANY work done to a visible portion of the home.

We are currently waiting on the association attorney to provide us with insight about dealing with the MC as well. It wouldnt be an issue if it didnt keep happening. let alone the fact that the person doing the work - owner of the MC - was a homeowner for 5 years and has worked on the sub for the last 10 so he knows very clearly what the covenants say.

SureshD
Posts: 268

Posted:

I understand the issue about requiring permission FIRST. It can be annoying.
So what is the remedy or "punishment" for this and this ONLY?...
...A fine and a request to submit an application?

If the ARB criterion don't disallow the modification and its design specifics then the modification ITSELF is NOT in violation SO then there can be no subsequent denial of it.

In other words, the HOA has no authority to apply punitive measures to an HO by DISAPPROVING an ARB request (modification) because it was not previously approved IF the modification itself is within ALL design criterion.

So the requirement for permission first becomes your ONLY issue and is easy to resolve by having the HO fill out the form and advise him of the policy.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 388

Posted:

Suresh,

IMO, it depends upon what the violation policy of the HOA is. Our policy states: "Any architectural change that commences prior to written approval by the architectural committee will generate a penalty of up to $1,500. This fee shall be owed regardless of approval or disapproval after the fact by the architectural committee."

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 388

Posted:

Jeff,

Since you ask: "...how the heck do we deal with the rest of this - or can we?", leads me to wonder why the BOD doesn't understand that these architectural changes need to be approved in the same manner as changes to properties that are handled by the property owner. The fact that the property is being managed by a paid MC has absolutely no bearing on how the architectural change is handled.

IMO, the BOD needs to meet with this MC, or send a letter, informing him that any architectural changes must receive prior approval otherwise the property owner will be subject to fines and may even be required to have the property put back to it's original condition. Also a letter should be sent to each property that was changed informing the property owner of the proper procedure and the fact that their MC is not following the rules of the assn. If any changes that were made are in violation of the CCRs then a violation letter should be sent accordingly. This MC is acting as an agent for the property owner and should know what the assn's rules are.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

I did forget to include that our Association has started taking pictures and sending them with the violation notices. This way the owner can see exactly what we are talking about. I will say that since we started doing this, there have been far fewer arguments over the issue.

SureshD
Posts: 268

Posted:

Mary wrote:
"Suresh,

IMO, it depends upon what the violation policy of the HOA is. Our policy states: "Any architectural change that commences prior to written approval by the architectural committee will generate a penalty of up to $1,500. This fee shall be owed regardless of approval or disapproval after the fact by the architectural committee"

---- ---- ----

Yea, I covered that in my first paragraph.

If they have no fining capabilities, as is in MY HOA, then all you can do is request a form, remind of policy, and move on.

However, if the modification is in violation of some HOA design criterion then that is a separate issue. That was NOT stated here.

If the OP's docs allow fining for the commencement of work prior to permission then there is no need for this post. They have their remedy. If fining won't stop people from doing it then they should raise the fine (if possible).

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 388

Posted:

Suresh,

The OP didn't indicate whether or not the HOA can fine and whether these improvements were violations of the restrictions or not. All he seemed to be concerned about was how to deal with the MC making improvements w/o prior approval and whether the BOD could do something about it. I guess the board must be somewhat afraid of this person otherwise they would know to treat these improvements the same as any others made w/o prior approval.