How about a Debate

After reading Tish’s post regarding document changes not known until after the statute of limitations had passed, I thought this could be a good debate question.

Debate Question:

Because CCR's are attached to, run with, and affect the value of property ... should the taking/changing of said CCR's without a property owner's knowledge and consent/vote be considered a crime of theft?

Thought to consider:

In the past Identity Theft was not a crime until individuals probably stood up and said, "This is wrong and should be punishable under the law".

Who knows … maybe we will come up with ideas that could insure everyone is better protected in the future. This also would eliminate or make others a little more careful about going behind any homeowner’s back without their knowledge.

I would contend that changing CCR’s without a homeowner’s knowledge or consent/vote eviscerates any protection afforded to homeowners by virtue of their CCR’s.

Too many variables.

WHO has the power to change the CCRs?

Was there notice given to this audience?

Was a duly called meeting held?

Was the motion stated and voted on?

Tish's issues are way too complicated to sum up in a few sentences. You would really need to read everything before making a judgement.

I second that one Mary!!! ... It could be a very interesting and I would love to see the judges ruling!!!

I guess I might need to possibly restart this thread without the reference to Trish's issue, as everyone keeps referring to this issue instead of what the actual thread is meant to be regarding the debate question. I had stated that the reason I started the thread was because of this issue ... and because I had something somewhat similar with my HOA.

I have never seen or heard of a set of CCRs which say they are intended to affect the value of the property. That is something that was started by who knows who to justify having CCRs. For a court to rule that those CCRs cannot be changed without the consent of all the members would be absolutely ludricrous. There is not a law in our land that requires a 100% vote of any parlimentary body to change.

As for receiving proper notification of a meeting, AZ HOA law states: "The failure of any member to receive actual notice of a meeting of the members does not affect the validity of any action taken at that meeting." And to go one step farther do you realize that you do not even have to agree to the CCRs, much less have prior knowledge of them, to be liable for abiding by them. The fact that you take ownership of property bound by them means you have agreed to them.

The change in property value is do to the loss of the common property. Just a word of warning. While I was down at the county...I casually mentioned that this was going to become my new hobby and find all the HOA's who have let there status's lapse and go take their property. I was immediately given a list of some very nice expensive properties. I am not actually going to do it, but I am going to make contact and share my story and see if this is really something they want to risk.

Do not let your HOA dissolve with common property...bad idea!

TIM ... what if you were in a new subdivision and your covenants were changed to allow for lesser square footage of home without your knowledge? Would this not then affect your personal property value?


The question states that it is being done without knowledge and consent/vote.

MARY … many states have laws that state to amend requires that property owners are notified and have a right to vote on said amendment or change. The problem I have seen in different posts is that there are individuals who will circumvent the process and not notify the homeowners. If your covenants were amended without your knowledge and consent/vote what would be your response?



CHARLIE … You are right almost all HOA documents I have reviewed make some initial statement which says something to the effect they are to protect the value of property.

However, as I asked Tim above … what if you were in a new subdivision and your covenants were changed to allow for lesser square footage of home without your knowledge? Would this not then affect your personal property value?

As Tish stated above her issue has supposedly decreased her property value by 50%.

Janet,

In response to your answer to Tim: IMO, the square footage of your home has nothing to do with the value of my home. Just ask a R.E. appraiser. Tish's property value may have been decreased by 50% but it had nothing to do with smaller homes being built, rather it has to do with having access to the beach, i.e. beachfront prop vs nonbeachfront prop. This is a rather unique situation where the loss of an amenity (common element) affects property value. IMO, the property values of most HOA properties would not be lost with the loss of the common elements,discounting pools,tennis courts, etc.

In response to your answer to me: This is the question you asked in starting this debate: "should the taking/changing of said CCR's without a property owner's knowledge and consent/vote be considered a crime of theft?" I interpret that to mean that you think every member should vote and agree to the amendment. I replied with a quote from my assn' CCRs which says the failure of any member to receive notice of the meeting does not affect the validity of any action taken at that meeting. You responded by saying many states require all members to be notified of a meeting to amend the CCRs. How many is many? AZ, for one, does not have this requirement. But, regardless, I don't know that any require a 100% vote to amend.

I agree 100%

Unfortunately this is the part that is harming HOA's ...

personal tastes and personal agendas tend to implement the rules/regs vs. what is best for the association

Janet,

This is the remark you made about Tish that I was referring to:

"However, as I asked Tim above … what if you were in a new subdivision and your covenants were changed to allow for lesser square footage of home without your knowledge? Would this not then affect your personal property value?

As Tish stated above her issue has supposedly decreased her property value by 50%."

I did not say that in AZ CCRs can be amended without any h/o knowledge. What I said is that there is no law governing this. There is no state law for planned communities dealing with CCR amendments. There is a condo law but it says nothing about noticing the members.

I agree all members should be noticed about a proposed change to the CCRs and have the opportunity to vote on the change. I do not agree that all members must vote for the change for it to be effective. I do not agree that it would be a crime of theft if the CCRs were amended and all members did not have the opportunity to vote.