living in garage - violating R&R's need help > HOA Forum

Unanswered

Active Topics

Forums

Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions

Subject: living in garage - violating R&R's need help

Prev Next

You are not authorized to post a reply.

Author

Messages

SandraO
(California)

Posts:2

03/16/2010 8:34 PM
A new owner recently had the garage carpeted and moved someone in that has a large bed, computer hooked up and has been seen by numerous homeowners. The board had a certified letter sent to the owner with a copy of the Rule from the handbook that states the violation and that they need to meet with the board a.s.a.p due to the violation and safety concerns. We had no response. I need information on where to find documentation on city and state codes for illegal garage conversions. We are going to have and executive session to next call for a hearing and then issue a citation-fine. We will call the city or fire department out as a last resort but if we can get them to comply with documentation then we'd rather go that route. I've gone onto websites to no avail. Please help... Our HOA is in Bellflower, CA.

DeeS1
(Michigan)

Posts:168

03/16/2010 9:20 PM
Personally, I would call the city as the first resort. I'm sure this matter is clearly covered in city code. Why put the Association front as the primary enforcer on this one? Should the homeower choose to comply with the city regulation and attempt to change this to a permitted legal conversion (if it is even possible), do your Bylaws/Rules have anything in place to accommodate an Alt/Mod request for a legal conversion (i.e. are homeowners required to park in the garage, required to have a garage, etc.). How would you handle requests for additions? Give these things some consideration if you have not done so already. Good luck.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5152

03/16/2010 10:20 PM
Sandra, Certainly city or town ordinances may come into play, but first, closely read you documents to see if there is a violation under your covenants. That comes first. You sent them a violation letter citing some covenants and you probably should have included some specific law or whatever they violated. Looking over your Post, several things catch your eye. Why cite the Handbook as authority, the hand book was copied from some legal document and you need to cite that law and know what all that law says. Is it required for the owner to appear before the board for this type offense, it's a good idea, but if it is required, cite that reference. You seem to be too far out front if you don't know the city ordinances, they should inform you of that and I would imagine have an office to provide you with this information. How has your association handled this in the past? Or something similar. Why are you going to ES to issue fines of any kind? Is that a state requirement? I can't see why, and doesn't seem to justify an ES. Issuing fines by the Board that are covered under your documents are not confidential, when the Board asked to meet to discuss this violation was that going to be ES. I wouldn't think so, but the person involved would be known, the violation would be known and the fines would be discussed...............why ES? It would be very strange not to see this addressed in your documents. How many units, HOA or condo, who maintains roads, who dictates parking, what is private property and what is common/ All questions the Board should have on their desk before they start firing off letters and then start looking around for how to justify them. On the other hand, we give just opinions, and that is mine, subject to any corrections and comments.

DeeS1
(Michigan)

Posts:168

03/17/2010 3:42 AM
Robert: I'm genuinely curious. It sounds like the HOA has formerly apprised the homeowner of their issue and the homeowner has done nothing to rectify the situation. They should continue with a fine if their documents allow of course, but why would you not hand this off to city government right away if it is a clear violation of city ordinances? Our experience has been that the city gets much better, quicker, and more serious leveraged results than our little HOA ever could at no added expense to the community.

SureshD
(Florida)

Posts:172

03/17/2010 3:58 AM
I'd be curious as to what exactly your documents say. Can you not store such items in your garage? Theres a difference between converting a garage to a living space and having such comfort items in there. My garage is kept clean. I personally have a large piece of remnant carpet (15x15), refrigerator, TV, stereo, ceiling fan, telephone (cordless), window A/C unit, wall mirror, wall clock and large sofa in my garage. My "man cave" if you will. In the Florida winters we set up a "card table" and often will eat a meal in there too with the kids. My docs say it cannot be converted to a living space. I have not converted anything.

TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:530

03/17/2010 4:07 AM
Suresh, Can you define the difference for us and cite where it came from? Based on what you posted, one could easily argue either side of the issue. Therefore, if you have a reference for clarification it would be appreciated. Tim

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5152

03/17/2010 4:18 AM
Dee, Well, let's see. The OP's request seemed to be that they didn't know what to do, how to do it, where to find out who did what and was seeking advise on these questions. Now if the association sits back and never addresses these item except to turn them over to the city, why are they involved at all. They then become a neighborhood watch program. I think it is a great opportunity for the place to be a viable part of the surrounding community. But we don't know how they are tied to the city and that seems to be part of the question. They need to establish how they are going to handle it joiontly and get it in writing and on the Board. Your concerns seem to be why should the regime be involved if the city is going to take care of it..........right? If this is what is set up and agreements have been made then fine with me, it's your community. But if you are going to fine your homeowners and let the city enforce then that better be worked out also. After you fine them, are you then going to allow the city to fine them also, if you do, that is probably a problem. Your experience is what they should shoot for if possible and if it works for you all it seems to indicate your HOA wants to be a part of the community and good for you, but you still have to maintain some autonomy or you will have no standing in your HOA, and at that point why have an HOA. Who owns your roads? Street lighting, police protection, swimming pool, common property? In a nutshell, if it works for you and you do not give up the formal structure of the association as written..........you all are doing great, maybe this other HOA........not so much.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5152

03/17/2010 4:42 AM
Many times sales offering describe properties and certainly deeds do. I would imagine the description of the property list this as a Garage. A Garage is not a bedroom or listed as such. Would you list your property as two bedrooms and a third bedroom can be used as a Garage, or one kitchen that can be converted to a ping pong room or the living room could be a workshop. If it is recorded in the county documents that is what it has to be. If you were living back in the woods and you wanted to add a third bedroom to your home, you need a building permit, you want to park a car in your living room and the door is big enough, you don't. You are living in a restricted community, if your covenants has restrictions you already agreed to them before you moved in. If you want to spend your time there trying to see if you can fight with YOUR association, have at it............get on your stump and proclaim your constitutional rights to prove you can have your way, but if your neighbor happens to have a Bengal Tiger and he wants to let him play in the yard, don't come running because your kids can't play outdoors, and you can't find any ordinances in the HOA documents or the city documents that he can't have that tiger. Most tongue in cheek.

DeeS1
(Michigan)

Posts:168

03/17/2010 5:08 AM
We've had a similar issue here, but not exactly the same. I guess I'm coming at it from the perspective that our documents do not govern the "inside" of a homeowner's residence -- only the exterior and usage restrictions. Theoretically, I don't believe the HOA can tell a homeowner that can't carpet a garage or put whatever furniture in there that they want. My HOA can tell them that they can't rent a portion of there home (so if the new person is paying rent it would be disallowed), we could tell them they have to park in their garage (which only would be a violation if they had a car), or the ACC could stipulate that each house must have a two car garage (which if the exterior was not converted, this owner would still meet). The city can enforce zoning and building restrictions. In fact, the way our bylaws are written, we couldn't do anything about the above mentioned homeowner as long as they were not renting and did not alter the exterior of their home ... only the city could. Now, if they pulled the garage doors out and put in a window, we could do something or if parking were an issue, but we couldn't violate or inspect their garage really. I'm too am curious what the HOA is actually citing as their violation.

SureshD
(Florida)

Posts:172

03/17/2010 5:48 AM
Exactly TimB, you could argue either side. That's all I did. And the OP should be ready for it. TimB wrote: "Can you define the difference for us and cite where it came from?" No can you? Does "sleeping" equal living? If I'm being accused of something the accuser has the burden of proof. I'm sharing my perspective and viewpoint to promote discussion. Did the OP say she, other residents, city officials, law enforcement, property manager or anyone SAW someone sleeping? The garage door must have been open at the time I would guess or a window provided a view from a common area. The former would be unlikely and the latter may be seen as being "peeping". Poeple see what they want to see. And it is possible the OP is CORRECT in her and other's suspicions. But you'll need proof. The presence of such items does not equate to conversion to a living space. I could store video and pinball games in my garage but that deosn't make it an arcade even if I'm playing them. That's all I'm saying. At the very least, if the owner never opens the garage door again and/or covers the windows while SLEEPING. Good Luck. You have to pick your battles and SO FAR this sounds difficult to remedy. It is likely a temporary situation anyways.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5152

03/17/2010 6:05 AM
Dee, Does your Hoa have pet restrictions ? Does your HOA have # occupancy restrictions, as you say you can require them to park car in garage, can they build a a tree house attached to the house, can they extend a sun room out into the yard, can they run a business from their home and serve customers there. Some of this is ACC restrictions some are HOA restrictions but there is some authority for establishing the restrictions. So it appears there is authority to tell people what they can do inside their homes and most all this stuff has withstood lawsuit after lawsuit and there will be more in the future and the Judge in his wisdom or lack of it will decree this is it, do it or go to jail. The HOA board is mandated to act in a manner to protect the association, this is not an easy task, requires more skills than most can muster, yet that is the law and the Board has to deal with it......God bless them. And if you mess with them for the sake of messing with them some of them will take you down, it's a fact. Dee, you say your Board can stop people from renting, what authority did this come from? Who wrote that authority that is in your documents, you can change it you know. Would your authority exist if you were not in a town. I don't think the issue is can the Board restrict what goes on in the house, the issue seems to be can the Board enforce the covenants as written. The Board has to make this decision and take the flak if it is unpopular, but they have to decide or be forced into a decision by a judge. You, apparently can fall back on the town restrictions, do you want to say they have all the authority, best get that sorted out.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5152

03/17/2010 6:24 AM
Suresh, Have you considered that accuser is part you? You apparently have no difficulty in expressing your rights here, and we are not your accuser, but yet you say to YOUR Board, you are the accuser you come and prove I am breaking a covenant. It should be discussed and it is being discussed here on this site, but would the discussion be more fruitful if it were between you and the Board.? The Board is not your enemy, at least most times.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:4644

03/17/2010 6:34 AM
You guys can argue what is or is not living space but only the local code enforcement makes that judgement. In warmer climates, they will be different that cool climates--aka air conditioning and heat, bathroom, WINDOW for egress, floor coverings, electrical outlets, fire walls, insullation and a host of other items. If this Board has been unsuccessful in getting the owner to comply, then you go to a higher authority and let them make the judgement.

DeeS1
(Michigan)

Posts:168

03/17/2010 6:37 AM
Robert: I believe you are misunderstanding me. As I have said, I understand that the HOA can regulate the exterior and usage of a home, but not the physical interior. If this homeowner has not altered the exterior of the home, I doubt the HOA can tell him he can't carpet, drywall, or even furnish they garage as they please. If this is the violation, I doubt it would stand up. If you are instead, trying to rely on zoning restrictions and building codes as the violation, as it appeared the OP was, then I would certainly have the city lead the way for enforcement. Now, if they can prove -- without trespassing -- that a "usage" rule is being violated from their CCRs, such as someone is "living" in the garage or renting the garage (if that's against their CCRs), it would probably be in violation... but good luck proving the renting or living thing claim.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5152

03/17/2010 7:05 AM
Donna, I'm with you, let God sort it out. But not all HOA are under a town covenants and have a God to go to. You know this. I don't know what the discussion is about at this point, and I do put all the blame for that on me.

SureshD
(Florida)

Posts:172

03/17/2010 7:52 AM
Unfortunately you cannot review the past posts while replying here without opening another window so I will not address every arguement in the past replies but rather the sentiment. Many forums do have the posts reviewable and would be helpful here as well. NONE of this is personal with y'all, just another view point! Debate is healthy. I'm not accusing anybody HERE of anything. The "you" I refer to unless I name you is the proverbial you. KNOWING as much as the rest of YOU do about the details in this case as posted here thus far... HOA living can be (is) adversarial at times. In this case the HOA is the clearly accuser. They have to prove it. Nothing is better than photographic If I were in this situation I MIGHT ask for proof of the accusations or more likely ignore the violation too as all you have done is see a bed and computer and carpet in my garage. The OP made no mention of storage restrictions. There is no proof anyone is sleeping in there thus far. Likely YES, Proof, again none presented. Concrete floors are cold. So I put down a throw rug. I may be painting a bedroom or replacing my flooring and need to remove it and my computer. You have to prove intent. You have to define and prove "living in". Not the accused. I believe the arguements here suggest I have no right to privacy in my garage that if I were to nod-off in my chair in my garage I'm living in it. How do you prove renting out a room? I pay my "roomate" cash. No possible proof. Local code enforcement cannot enter and inspect the interior of my home with out an invitation or warrant. Maybe in Venezuala but not the U.S... yet! As far as expresising my thoughts (rights) here, isn't this a discussion forum. Or is it limited to just those views similar to the concensus. This APPEARS to me to be a "leaped before looked" situation and as yet has no merit. I would want to know possible arguements against my views to be better prepared for whatever. This forum provides that. If the OP comes back and said they proved it and prevailed great. I "have no Horse in this race". I learned something and we are all beeter for it. TNT... Sam

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:6875

03/17/2010 8:20 AM
SureshD, You make some very good, valid points and have my full agreement -- for whatever that means. Remember the old adage, "The proof is in the pudding."

SureshD
(Florida)

Posts:172

03/17/2010 9:41 AM
Thanks Mary. I'm new and do not want to be labeled in any sort of negative way because I (may) challenge the discussions. I am a volunteer on the Architectural committee in my HOA, not a "troll" or "lurker" looking to cause trouble. I may even argue against my own feelings or wishes if it will provoke more dialog. Recently I asked about a fence on common area and found the resposes in some cases different than I may have wished but it gave me ideas on how to prepare for future debate with my HOA. I expect to need opinions in the future and don't want people to ignore me because I may challenge them. My goal is not to pick fights or cause trouble but to LEARN. I always try to separate personal opinions from the person expressing them. I wish there was spell check here too although my typing is worse! TNT, Sam

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:6875

03/17/2010 4:27 PM
SureshD, As for me, I always enjoy hearing opposing views. It's amazing how much one can learn by just listening to what others have to say. I don't think you'll be labeled a trouble maker just for presenting your point of view even though it may differ from what the majority are saying. Civility is the only thing we ask for here -- arrogance and a know-it-all attitude is a real turn off. Hope you'll continue to contribute to this forum. I've heard that it's ok to misspell words or not use proper grammer in email communications. Speed is what email is all about, not accuracy or proficiency. At least that's what I've heard! LOL

TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:530

03/17/2010 6:01 PM
Suresh, I could not define the difference either. I also agree to your expanded response to my question. Tim

SureshD
(Florida)

Posts:172

03/17/2010 6:05 PM
Thanks 2 U 2 Tim. TNT, SAM

You are not authorized to post a reply.

Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > living in garage - violating R&R's need help